Poll suggests 1 in 5 Americans cannot make simple factual assessments

[Oblarg]

I did see it, I don't recall anything about repealing the Constitution and having a dictatorship of priests. Which denomination did they recommend would take over btw?

 

Of course it wasn't that blatant, but it was a frightening shift towards bible-based law.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Actually Western law has always been Bible based. I'm not sure what you're talking about in particular, I don't recall that thread that well.

[Orogun01]

Actually Western law has always been Bible based. I'm not sure what you're talking about in particular, I don't recall that thread that well.

The Constitution was based on the ideas of John Locke, that is not to say completely ripped off. Locke argued for religious tolerance in his time, this transfered to the Constitution through religious freedom. I don't particularly know what you talk about.

[entrerix]

bible based law?

 

I hear this get thrown around a lot, I am very familiar with many of the laws of the united states, I am not very familiar with the bible. Can someone explain the similarities between the two?

 

I thought the bible was basically just don't eat pork, dont kill people, dont cheat on your wife, dont worship false idols badaboombadabing.

 

saying that our legal system is based on those ideals is a bit... well... crazy.

 

but like I said, I don't know much about the bible... maybe our US legal system really isn't primarily based around common law.

[Guard Dog]

And the democrats are going to continue trying to convert us to a Planned Economic model.

Haha, I ****ing wish.

 

The difference between you and them is they want to do it gradually, over time. You want it tomorrow, over dead American bodies.

[Gorth]

I thought the bible was basically just don't eat pork, dont kill people, dont cheat on your wife, dont worship false idols badaboombadabing.

Those are just the Commandments. A country run by the Christian bible would be hard to distinguish from a Taliban run Afghanistan. I.e. authoritarian clergy in a patriarchal society.

[entrerix]

so everytime someone says that western law is bible based they are just talking out of their ass?

 

that's kinda what I assumed, but was hoping for that not to be the case because I hear that phrase fairly often.

[Oblarg]

so everytime someone says that western law is bible based they are just talking out of their ass?

 

that's kinda what I assumed, but was hoping for that not to be the case because I hear that phrase fairly often.

 

It's a very common misconception that America was founded by Christians and based on Christian values.

 

The founding fathers were Deists.

[Cogar66]

I hate authoritarian leftists.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

 

 

[Hurlshort]

so everytime someone says that western law is bible based they are just talking out of their ass?

 

that's kinda what I assumed, but was hoping for that not to be the case because I hear that phrase fairly often.

 

It's a very common misconception that America was founded by Christians and based on Christian values.

 

The founding fathers were Deists.

 

And it really doesn't matter much if it was, because our nation has changed considerably over the centuries for the sake of tolerance and equality. Just like Christianity itself has changed, and just like Islam has changed.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Someone slept through their history classes. Our laws descend all the way from the Code of Hammurabi. The Bible had a huge influence on the entire Western Civilization. Ideas don't just spring out of nothing. And the idea that all the founders were deists and not Christians is ridiculous.

[Gorth]

The Bible had a huge influence on the entire Western Civilization. Ideas don't just

How did it influence it exactly?

 

No, not a trick question. Just wondering since "Western Civilisation" was there for a few thousand years before the Bible came knocking so to speak (it has only been around for a measly millennia in large parts of Europe). I could have sworn that Greek and Roman culture was what shaped it.

[Orogun01]

Someone slept through their history classes. Our laws descend all the way from the Code of Hammurabi. The Bible had a huge influence on the entire Western Civilization. Ideas don't just spring out of nothing. And the idea that all the founders were deists and not Christians is ridiculous.

Dude, no offense. But how does a book filled with the same generic stories of all religions helps shape the world? The peak of Christian though came with the middle ages and it was wasted with nonsense and fear mongering, it took a revival of the old roman artistic traditions to bring the world back into shape. It's hard to see how any religious though has ever influenced modern society.

 

Ps: there are several quotes from founders that state their thoughts against religion and fanaticism. Suffice it to say that they were mostly Masons.

[Pidesco]

It's hard to see how any religious though has ever influenced modern society.

 

You could always buy new glasses.

[Wrath of Dagon]

The Bible had a huge influence on the entire Western Civilization. Ideas don't just

How did it influence it exactly?

 

No, not a trick question. Just wondering since "Western Civilisation" was there for a few thousand years before the Bible came knocking so to speak (it has only been around for a measly millennia in large parts of Europe). I could have sworn that Greek and Roman culture was what shaped it.

Well, I can't very well recount 3000 years of history in detail to explain. Suffice it to say there are two powerful influences on the Western culture, one being Greco/Roman and the other being the Old Testament. These two merged 2000 years ago to form Christianity and begin the Western culture as we understand it today (I guess strictly speaking it started when Constantin converted).

 

Edit: Btw, being a Mason doesn't contradict being a Christian, in fact most Masons are Christians.

 

Edit2: Just to give one example, probably the most important idea of the Western civilization is that all men are equal before God. That idea originated with Christianity.

Edited August 26, 2010 by Wrath of Dagon

[Hurlshort]

Thomas Jefferson's letters were laced heavily with Deist ideals from the Enlightenment. James Madison and John Adams were more publicly deist, but the fact is the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights, and and the Constitution are all suitably vague about religion for a reason; they were not endorsing a specific denomination, nor do they address Christianity in general at any point.

 

That being said, the Bible clearly plays an important role in Western Society. I am finding it interesting that WoD can be extremely critical of Islam but seems to lack that same discerning eye when it comes to Christianity.

[Hurlshort]

Edit2: Just to give one example, probably the most important idea of the Western civilization is that all men are equal before God. That idea originated with Christianity.

 

That is flat out wrong. The ideas of equality don't take fruition until the humanist movement, which was secular in nature. The Catholic Church was all about feudalism until the Reformation and the Renaissance, when Martin Luther successfully broke away from the church. His idea of equality before God wasn't new, but he was the first one to avoid getting killed and actually get some royalty to back him. Feudalism served the needs of Christianity very well early on, it allowed them to gain a considerable amount of power.

[Orogun01]

Well, I can't very well recount 3000 years of history in detail to explain. Suffice it to say there are two powerful influences on the Western culture, one being Greco/Roman and the other being the Old Testament. These two merged 2000 years ago to form Christianity and begin the Western culture as we understand it today (I guess strictly speaking it started when Constantin converted).

Christianity is the dominant western religion, doesn't mean that it contributed to modern society when in fact has done a lot to hinder it. Scientific pursuit was often labeled as heresy, now science is the dominant word of reason and its the pillar of all modern life. It's hard for me to see how religion has contributed to the progress of mankind.

Edit: Btw, being a Mason doesn't contradict being a Christian, in fact most Masons are Christians.

 

Edit2: Just to give one example, probably the most important idea of the Western civilization is that all men are equal before God. That idea originated with Christianity.

Masons are of different variants but they all meet on the level, there is no religious intolerance or arrogance and for your info most Mason tend to refer to their deity as the Architect. Sort of the universal creator that all religions have.

[Tigranes]

I thought the bible was basically just don't eat pork,

 

Now I can definitely believe the findings of the poll.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Thomas Jefferson's letters were laced heavily with Deist ideals from the Enlightenment. James Madison and John Adams were more publicly deist, but the fact is the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights, and and the Constitution are all suitably vague about religion for a reason; they were not endorsing a specific denomination, nor do they address Christianity in general at any point.

 

That being said, the Bible clearly plays an important role in Western Society. I am finding it interesting that WoD can be extremely critical of Islam

Once again, I'm not ciritcal of Islam, I'm critical of militant Islam.

but seems to lack that same discerning eye when it comes to Christianity.

You have no basis whatsoever for saying that.

 

Feudalism doesn't preclude all men being equal before God (the meek will inherit the earth, remember?), that doesn't mean that all men are equal in everything.

[Oblarg]

The Bible had a huge influence on the entire Western Civilization. Ideas don't just

How did it influence it exactly?

 

No, not a trick question. Just wondering since "Western Civilisation" was there for a few thousand years before the Bible came knocking so to speak (it has only been around for a measly millennia in large parts of Europe). I could have sworn that Greek and Roman culture was what shaped it.

Well, I can't very well recount 3000 years of history in detail to explain. Suffice it to say there are two powerful influences on the Western culture, one being Greco/Roman and the other being the Old Testament. These two merged 2000 years ago to form Christianity and begin the Western culture as we understand it today (I guess strictly speaking it started when Constantin converted).

 

Edit: Btw, being a Mason doesn't contradict being a Christian, in fact most Masons are Christians.

 

Edit2: Just to give one example, probably the most important idea of the Western civilization is that all men are equal before God. That idea originated with Christianity.

 

Equal before the law is the important idea, not god. It's a secular idea.

[lord of flies]

The difference between you and them is they want to do it gradually, over time. You want it tomorrow, over dead American bodies.

The long-term goals of the progressive wing of the Democratic Party are, at best, Keynesian on a level that doesn't even approach NEP. Ask a Democrat what his ideal America looks like, and you'll see gradualist bull**** - more civil rights, better welfare programs, etc - with no deeper meaning. Leftists challenge the idea that an economy should be primarily based upon large-scale capitalist enterprise (i.e. corporations); Democrats don't. They may question the extent political power should belong to corporations, but the idea of their abolition and replacement by another system (whether worker's cooperatives, a state planned economy, etc) does not even occur to Democrats as being possible.

 

Of course, that's the progressive wing of the Democratic Party - a wing that neither Barack Obama nor Bill Clinton belong to, and one I don't see coming to power again for at least another six years, almost certainly at least ten, and probably more. Yes, Barack Obama signed this big health care bill - but Wilson signed the income tax. Sometimes the public gets to make a decision and what the President thinks doesn't have anything to do with it. The history of the United States is not a series of political figures acting on fiat. We don't live in a presidential republic.

 

I'm welcome to being proven wrong. Go ahead and give any evidence (in the form of a statement from a party member, I don't want to see you bring up the bank bailout or whatever) that the long term goals of any major Democrat is a planned economy.

[Thorton_AP]

I did see it, I don't recall anything about repealing the Constitution and having a dictatorship of priests. Which denomination did they recommend would take over btw?

 

Of course it wasn't that blatant, but it was a frightening shift towards bible-based law.

 

Just have to read between the lines

[Thorton_AP]

Just to give one example, probably the most important idea of the Western civilization is that all men are equal before God

 

That definitely explains the Divine Right of Kings.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Equal before the law is the important idea, not god. It's a secular idea.

No it's not, it follows from the idea that all men are equal before God. Just like men are endowed with inalienable rights by their Creator, from Declaration of Independence.