Poll suggests 1 in 5 Americans cannot make simple factual assessments

[Wrath of Dagon]

but the Soviet Union didn't directly look down upon spirituality, what they looked down upon and crushed quite severely was the political power wielded by organized religion, whatever religion that might be. But it did not spread disbelief in some higher power.

Wrong, the belief in God is incompatible with Marxism/Leninism, it's the opiate of the people.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

...it's the opiate of the people.

 

You do know that is not the full quote, right?

 

Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man

[~Di]

"These people" are Americans. They are being asked... more of a demand, actually... to give up their constitution protections and property rights so that some of their fellow Americans won't be offended? Offended by the demonstration of religious tolerance on which our nation was built?

 

This entire episode has gone viral in this country, whipped by hate-speech, misinformation, disinformation and outright lies. I'm stunned and ashamed by what I've seen. The organizers have been villified and slandered, fueled by bigotry and religious intolerance. Here. In America.

 

The whole thing has been deliberately blown up by politicians for political reasons, to divide Americans and paint Muslim Americans as people who should be looked at with suspicion, and who should not exercise their own constitution freedoms and property rights because doing so would offend others. I mean, cripes. What the hell could be more unAmerican than that!

 

Fact: This old Burlington Coat Factory is already being used as a mosque, and has been for some time. The overflow from the congregation's current location uses it.

 

Fact: The building is two blocks from the outside perimeter of the WTC cordoned area, but it's six blocks from the North Tower, the closer of the two towers.

 

Fact: There is a mosque already built and in use five blocks from the North Tower, and nobody thinks that it is encroaching on hallowed ground.

 

Fact: There are Muslim prayer services daily inside the Pentagon. Is that sacrilege to those who died there on 9/11?

 

Fact: Many Muslims lost their lives on 9/11, including the entire staff of the Arab Chamber of Commerce, the WTC offices of which contained... a mosque.

 

Can't you people see that those pandering to this horrible religious bigotry are trying to bring out the worst in us as a nation, bring us back to a place where we as a society felt it okay for some people to be segregated, treated as second-class citizens because of the color of their skin? To recreate this vitriolic atmosphere using religious intolerance rather than racial intolerance as a lynchpin is... is... an abomination.

 

I'm really dumfounded by this, and by the reactions of good people, reactions that I cannot understand on any level.

[Humodour]

Well said, Di.

[Wrath of Dagon]

...it's the opiate of the people.

 

You do know that is not the full quote, right?

 

Just thought you might want to read it in context before you start making claims based off of it (not that those claims are wrong, you could argue either way, but it's always nice to put something in the full work when citing it -helps prevent quote-mining-).

 

In context it still means the same thing as I said, and further your quote confirms that religion is not compatible with Marxism Leninism and something to be fought against. But thanks for the quote.

 

Edit: None of those are arguments for why they should build a new mosque right next to Ground Zero. If it was some kind of interfaith center inclusive of people of all faiths, that would be a different story. I believe that was actually proposed and rejected by the Cordoba foundation. All they're interested in is Muslim triumphalism, this has nothing to do with being able to practice your religion freely, they can do that anywhere else in Manhattan.

Edited August 22, 2010 by Wrath of Dagon

[Hurlshort]

Edit: None of those are arguments for why they should build a new mosque right next to Ground Zero. If it was some kind of interfaith center inclusive of people of all faiths, that would be a different story. I believe that was actually proposed and rejected by the Cordoba foundation. All they're interested in is Muslim triumphalism, this has nothing to do with being able to practice your religion freely, they can do that anywhere else in Manhattan.

 

That is odd, the Cordoba Initiative's mission statement is:

 

The programs at Cordoba Initiative (CI) are designed to cultivate multi-cultural and multi-faith understanding across minds and borders. In the ten years since our founding, the necessity to strengthen the bridge between Islam and the West continues to prevail. Cordoba Initiative seeks to actively promote engagement through a myriad of programs, by reinforcing similarities and addressing differences.

[Thorton_AP]

I really have no strong feeling about this thing one way or another

 

Certainly doesn't appear that way.

[Guard Dog]

I really have no strong feeling about this thing one way or another

 

Certainly doesn't appear that way.

Nah, I don't. They have every right to build their mosque there, I just think everyone should see it for what it is.

 

You know I just realized, I started this whole thread derailment back on page two by pointing out that Obama was stupid for involving himself in a local issue and turning it into a national, election year issue right when trust in him is at it's lowest ebb. I know Awesomness correctly pointed out that Obama did not actually endorse the project, just reaffirmed what nobody was disagreeing with, that they had the right to build it. Unfortuantely for the President that is a distinction without a difference. Obama needs to learn something that Clinton, and even GWB knew... do not involve yourself in things that do not concern the United States as a whole. This is the third time he's done it and he's come off the worse each time.

 

The biggest problem with Obama is that he does not understand the role he is supposed to play as President. He is NOT a ruler, but I think he sees himself as one. He is NOT Americas moral voice, but he wants to be. He really does not understand what the POTUS is supposed to do so he overreaches on things where his power should be limited and is absent or clueless on his real responsibilities.

[Meshugger]

All is going by the prime directive. The people will rise up against Obama and elect a president that is less intervening and more conservative. Things will get worse, but project hopechange made sure that the number of idealists are wastly outnumbered by the apathists. Good, goooooood.....

[Morgoth]

Looking forward when President Palin runs the US down into the ground.

[Volourn]

Win't happen. Even if she's elected (which i seriously doubt), it simply won't happen. That kind of silliness is the same talk that had claims that Bush was gonna be dictator for life, or that Obama is going to completely destroy the country. It's ridiculous.

[Orogun01]

Win't happen. Even if she's elected (which i seriously doubt), it simply won't happen. That kind of silliness is the same talk that had claims that Bush was gonna be dictator for life, or that Obama is going to completely destroy the country. It's ridiculous.

I kind of see a parable here with the Roman empire, it wasn't built in one day and it definitively wasn't destroyed in one. It took a succession of petty emperors, if the damage done by Bush isn't fixed I see the US losing its status as the world foremost superpower.

[Wrath of Dagon]

US is a republic, not an empire. It's not like we've never been in a tough spot before. The situation before the Civil war was way worse than it is now. I can provide a link if anyone's interested.

 

Edit: None of those are arguments for why they should build a new mosque right next to Ground Zero. If it was some kind of interfaith center inclusive of people of all faiths, that would be a different story. I believe that was actually proposed and rejected by the Cordoba foundation. All they're interested in is Muslim triumphalism, this has nothing to do with being able to practice your religion freely, they can do that anywhere else in Manhattan.

 

That is odd, the Cordoba Initiative's mission statement is:

 

The programs at Cordoba Initiative (CI) are designed to cultivate multi-cultural and multi-faith understanding across minds and borders. In the ten years since our founding, the necessity to strengthen the bridge between Islam and the West continues to prevail. Cordoba Initiative seeks to actively promote engagement through a myriad of programs, by reinforcing similarities and addressing differences.

That's just propaganda designed for a gullible western audience. Their founder publicly said (in Arabic of course) he doesn't believe in interfaith dialog. His quotes given in this thread should convince anyone with an ounce of common sense that he is at least a terrorist sympathizer, if not an active supporter. His position is basically the same as Bin Laden's, we got what we deserved.

[Hurlshort]

That's just propaganda designed for a gullible western audience. Their founder publicly said (in Arabic of course) he doesn't believe in interfaith dialog. His quotes given in this thread should convince anyone with an ounce of common sense that he is at least a terrorist sympathizer, if not an active supporter. His position is basically the same as Bin Laden's, we got what we deserved.

 

Either that, or your reading comprehension is not very good and you don't really understand the quotes.

 

My options seem to be that either the US State Department if full of morons that do not understand what Rauf is saying, or WoD does not understand what Rauf is saying. Hrm...

[Guard Dog]

Win't happen. Even if she's elected (which i seriously doubt), it simply won't happen. That kind of silliness is the same talk that had claims that Bush was gonna be dictator for life, or that Obama is going to completely destroy the country. It's ridiculous.

I kind of see a parable here with the Roman empire, it wasn't built in one day and it definitively wasn't destroyed in one. It took a succession of petty emperors, if the damage done by Bush isn't fixed I see the US losing its status as the world foremost superpower.

You know what, never mind what I originally posted here. It's too late in the day, I'm still hungover from this morning, and I have a hell of a lot of work to do before tomorrow. I just do not have the time to argue.

Edited August 22, 2010 by Guard Dog

[Gorgon]

Bush did much to ruin international cooperation by pretending to want to 'play by the rules' and then just doing what he wanted when it didn't pan out the way he hoped. The allegory with the Roman empire... no that doesn't really work now does it. The Romans didn't need to be diplomats, they invaded to spread their culture and influence. Bush would have been an excellent Caesar, not bad one.

Edited August 22, 2010 by Gorgon

[Wrath of Dagon]

That's just propaganda designed for a gullible western audience. Their founder publicly said (in Arabic of course) he doesn't believe in interfaith dialog. His quotes given in this thread should convince anyone with an ounce of common sense that he is at least a terrorist sympathizer, if not an active supporter. His position is basically the same as Bin Laden's, we got what we deserved.

 

Either that, or your reading comprehension is not very good and you don't really understand the quotes.

The funny thing is, I was very tempted to say that about you, but decided to be polite.

 

My options seem to be that either the US State Department if full of morons that do not understand what Rauf is saying, or WoD does not understand what Rauf is saying. Hrm...

The State Department has always been full of accomodationist morons, nothing new here. How else to explain their sending this guy to raise money for his mosque from Middle East despots using taxpayer money?

 

Edit: Your third option is to think for yourself btw, instead of relying on Obama's or State Department's judgment.

 

Edit2: Here's some more stuff to ponder: http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/war-and-peace...n-islam-part-1/

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/war-and-peace...n-islam-part-2/

Edited August 22, 2010 by Wrath of Dagon

[Volourn]

"I kind of see a parable here with the Roman empire, it wasn't built in one day and it definitively wasn't destroyed in one. It took a succession of petty emperors, if the damage done by Bush isn't fixed I see the US losing its status as the world foremost superpower."

 

being a super power is irreleavn to the discussion. the claim that Palin would 'ruin' the US. Not being a superpower doesn't mean you are ruined... unless you claim countries like Kanada and Britian and France are 'ruined' becasue they are not supowers. And, was Russia has improved since losing their 'superpower' status, imo. *shrug*

[GreasyDogMeat]

Looking forward when President Palin runs the US down into the ground.

I don't think the trajectory can be altered any further down than what it is right now under Obama. I don't believe Palin would make a good president, but she sure as hell would make a better one than Obama and might pull us up a degree or two from our screaming descent.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I'm not really enthused about Palin being president, but I have to say she's the only one of the potential candidates who I have confidence would honestly try to secure the border.

[Guest The Architect]

If Gillard ends up as PM over here (I don't know I haven't been following our election), and then Palin ends up as President in the states, then the world really is going to end in 2012, if this path of female political leaders continues any further.

[Hurlshort]

Palin has very little chance of ever coming near the presidency. She has become more of a celebrity than anything else, her ability to actually be taken seriously by voters seems severely limited.

 

Rush Limbaugh would have a better shot at getting votes.

[Guest The Architect]

Palin has very little chance of ever coming near the presidency. She has become more of a celebrity than anything else, her ability to actually be taken seriously by voters seems severely limited.

 

Because she's a woman amirite?

[Trenitay]

How can she possibly be better? She quit.

[Oblarg]

I'm not really enthused about Palin being president, but I have to say she's the only one of the potential candidates who I have confidence would honestly try to secure the border.

 

What would then happen once the cheap labor dries up, though?

 

Methinks immigration is a problem that requires a deeper solution than "deport the bastards and stop them from coming back." We've got ourselves into a bit of a pickle - we don't want our tax money to support those who don't pay taxes, but we do want the cheap labor those same people provide.

 

I don't think the trajectory can be altered any further down than what it is right now under Obama. I don't believe Palin would make a good president, but she sure as hell would make a better one than Obama and might pull us up a degree or two from our screaming descent.

 

I really hope you're not serious.

 

I'm no Obama fanboy, but I fail to see how he is rapidly bringing our country to ruin as some radicals would have us believe.