Gromnir Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 With the combat, I might actually prefer the PC evrsion of DA2 unlike DA1 where the console version was vastly supeiror. WAT. Proof that Volo indeed does live in a parallel universe but his internet connects to ours somehow. is simple vol syllogism. vol played da:o on a console. vol liked da:o on the console. therefore, da:o is best on the console. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
HoonDing Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 The fact that the mobs are smaller on console and that combat is less complex, is imo quite a boon, though. It makes combat be over much quicker, which is quite a blessing. The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.
Azdeus Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 The fact that the mobs are smaller on console and that combat is less complex, is imo quite a boon, though. It makes combat be over much quicker, which is quite a blessing. That would be a blessing, yes - while I enjoy the style of combat they employed it kind of dwarfed just about everything else in the game, and the combat itself was'nt that interesting. I do hope they let you get some alternatives to fighting in the sequel, but I don't have much trust in Bioware letting you do something as complex as that. Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken
Gromnir Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 rather than reducing or simplifying da combat, we would prefer that existing ratio o' combats were kept while adding tactical and strategic complexity. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Azdeus Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 I do hope they get around to doing that aswell. I'm mostly bored of combat myself though(Get enough of that of the news), might be that I'm alone in it - but having alternatives is nice. Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken
Thorton_AP Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 I have always found BioWare's games to be combat heavier than they needed to be.
Gromnir Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 I do hope they get around to doing that aswell. I'm mostly bored of combat myself though(Get enough of that of the news), might be that I'm alone in it - but having alternatives is nice. there is many crpg fans who endure the combats w/o taking any enjoyment from them. nevertheless, even some o' us old-timey tabletop war-gamers who have a hard time imagining a crpg w/o tactical combat would like to see more non-combat options introduced into the games. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Azdeus Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 (edited) ^- *Salute* I'm using hyperbole here, but sometimes it felt that World of Warcraft had less combat than Biowares games. I don't know why they chose to have the amount of combat that they do and don't give any alternatives to it, and they're hailed as the best RPG makers the world has to offer? *Sigh* Edited July 16, 2010 by Azdeus Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken
Thorton_AP Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 I think to some, combat is considered a staple of what it means to be an RPG. You'll find no real consensus on the definition
Gromnir Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 (edited) ^- *Salute* I'm using hyperbole here, but sometimes it felt that World of Warcraft had less combat than Biowares games. I don't know why they chose to have the amount of combat that they do and don't give any alternatives to it, and they're hailed as the best RPG makers the world has to offer? *Sigh* they know their customers. coming up with highly differentiated combat encounters AND creating non-combat alternatives requires more effort and resources than does spamming repetitive exp and 1007 drops. diablo, the game credited with resurrecting crpgs, were nothing but repetitive combat encounters punctuated by a few boss battles. bg, the game that put bio on the crpg map, were a game that kinda bridged the gap 'tween the hardcore role-play purists, and the new wave o' diablo fans. bio has never gotten too far removed from their crpg roots... and why should they. grindy combats, particularly in bg, nwn, kotor, me and me2, hardly hurt the biowarian bottom line. HA! Good Fun! ps keep in mind that there is some practical considerations for making combat compulsory and frequent. Nerm the Magnificent, and his loyal party o' jnpcs, struggled through all four trap and monster laden levels o' the Dungeon o' Doom before encountering the Vampire Queen and her evil minions. took 15 hours o' gameplay to reach the Vampire Queen, and the final combat with her highness took another 30 minutes and a half-dozen reloads. now, as a developer, try to achieve a similar 'mount o' gameplay w/o combat. Edited July 16, 2010 by Gromnir "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Azdeus Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 (edited) I think to some, combat is considered a staple of what it means to be an RPG. You'll find no real consensus on the definition I know what you mean, it's a dead horse that's been beaten back to life and then to death again. I have my own, quite strict yet simple definition of what makes an RPG what it is, but combat is'nt (necessarily) part of it. they know their customers. coming up with highly differentiated combat encounters AND creating non-combat alternatives requires more effort and resources than does spamming repetitive exp and 1007 drops. diablo, the game credited with resurrecting crpgs, were nothing but repetitive combat encounters punctuated by a few boss battles. bg, the game that put bio on the crpg map, were a game that kinda bridged the gap 'tween the hardcore role-play purists, and the new wave o' diablo fans. bio has never gotten too far removed from their crpg roots... and why should they. grindy combats, particularly in bg, nwn, kotor, me and me2, hardly hurt the biowarian bottom line. HA! Good Fun! Edit; ps keep in mind that there is some practical considerations for making combat compulsory and frequent. Nerm the Magnificent, and his loyal party o' jnpcs struggled through all four trap and monster laden levels o' the Dungeon o' Doom before encountering the Vampire Queen and her evil minions. took 15 hours o' gameplay to reach the Vampire Queen, and the final combat with her highness took another 30 minutes and a half-dozen reloads. now, as a developer, try to achieve a similar 'mount o' gameplay w/o combat. Yes, they do know their fanbase well seemingly. Many people love their games through rain, sleet and snow, and I don't begrudge them that. While Bioware certainly has resources, I think the main hindrance to them expanding their combat systems and exploring possibilities for non-combat alternatives are hampered by their own fanbase aswell. I've played most of their games, and I can't recall a single place where you could for instance avoid combat through dialogue. (Though the opposite I think is available). I thought that Fallout was hailed as the game resurrecting cRPG's, atleast by the critics, but my memories may fail me or might be too colored by nostalgia for the right memories to be set correctly. You're quite right about the grindy combat, but atleast I remember the combat in the BG games to be less... grindy as it was. Not saying that you are wrong now, since this is personal experience, but most people that I know that played Diablo hated the BG series. Edit; Yes, that is quite true, writing non-combat or building stealth areas are time and resource consuming - would'nt dare to say anything else. We're most likely talking ten times the amount of time and effort of doing this. The results would be a better game though, and if these sort of things were to nestle their way into the mainstream gaming... games, I would'nt mind paying more money for my products either. Cloning mobs and just designing a dungeon takes a long time, hence why Diablo and its successor used RNG to create the dungeons. J-NPC = joinable npc or..? Edited July 16, 2010 by Azdeus Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken
WorstUsernameEver Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 I found the combat in Baldur's Gate to be a little quicker, mostly because instead of making every encounter at least moderately challenging like in Dragon Age, a good portion of them were simply mindless hack & slash fun to give you experience. Still, both BG & BGII were quite combat-heavy and grindy games.
Azdeus Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 I found the combat in Baldur's Gate to be a little quicker, mostly because instead of making every encounter at least moderately challenging like in Dragon Age, a good portion of them were simply mindless hack & slash fun to give you experience.Still, both BG & BGII were quite combat-heavy and grindy games. Have'nt played either one of those in more than 5 years probably, so you're quite likely right in that. Might've been that those encounters did'nt require you to do much besides let the character scripts ran on and possibly manage your mage a little. I remember my first BG playthrough, did'nt have a mage. Ever. Never liked mages, hence my fondness for how DA: O dealt with them. Yummy. Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken
Gromnir Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 (edited) http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic...ighlight=#23414 also, am thinking our definition o' grindy is different than some folks. if combats is undifferentiated and repetitive, we considers 'em grindy. as such, bg combats were far more grindy than the combats in any other bio crpg... save maybe kotor. da ain't anywhere near the level o' bg grind. how many functionally identical hobgoblin, bandit, gnoll and skeleton attacks did you face in bg? yeah, some o' the darkspawn encounters in the deep roads got repetitive, but the mindless repetition o' near identical bg encounters were diabloesque... and the fact that such encounters were simple hack and slash did not reduce the grind. HA! Good Fun! ps jnpc = joinable npc. in a crpg, all characters NOT the player's is npcs... so jnpc refers to party npcs. Edited July 16, 2010 by Gromnir "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Volourn Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 (edited) "is simple vol syllogism. vol played da:o on a console. vol liked da:o on the console. therefore, da:o is best on the console." ERROR ALERT! FALALCYA LERT! TROLL ALERT! LIAR ALERT! What you wrote is pure garbage. Im bought, and played DA on PC. In fact, consideirnmg I bought a brand new computer just so I can play DA on it, you better believe I would rather have enjoyed the game on PC since I'm quite happy sticking with hockey on xbox. I figured since DA was 'old skool' that it would be better on PC so I planned accordingly. Oh hells no, i was wrong. DA is a vastly superior gaming experience on the 360 for a multitude of reasons none of which are 'I played it only on the 360 so it must be why it was good'. That's a PC fanboyism talking. The only thing DA had over the 360 was the over the top 'isometric view'. everything else, the 360 did it just as good or better. But, now, with the dumbing down of DA2 console combat, that may no longer be the case. Now, hopefully, they'll smarten up the PC version of the journal as DA PC's journal was one of the worst journals I've ever seen. I had to dump DA PC version on my brother because I couldn't be bothered looking at its pathetic wananbe face again. *shrug* Edited July 16, 2010 by Volourn DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
Azdeus Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 (edited) http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic...ighlight=#23414 also, am thinking our definition o' grindy is different than some folks. if combats is undifferentiated and repetitive, we considers 'em grindy. as such, bg combats were far more grindy than the combats in any other bio crpg... save maybe kotor. da ain't anywhere near the level o' bg grind. how many functionally identical hobgoblin, bandit, gnoll and skeleton attacks did you face in bg? yeah, some o' the darkspawn encounters in the deep roads got repetitive, but the mindless repetition o' near identical bg encounters were diabloesque... and the fact that such encounters were simple hack and slash did not reduce the grind. HA! Good Fun! ps jnpc = joinable npc. in a crpg, all characters NOT the player's is npcs... so jnpc refers to party npcs. *Nods* Never saw the acronym before. And VB? Wow, you dug deeply there. Was still just a lurker over there back then. My definition of grindy is just... lots of combat, plain and simple - but it's certainly not helped if they're repetitive aswell. I do well remember gathering money by sleeping in the area around... the city after Candlekeep. And selling the equipment. I think I just felt the DA: O grinding due to the fact that it was more recent and I had "already" started to get bored with combat. Edited July 16, 2010 by Azdeus Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken
Gromnir Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 (edited) http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic...ighlight=#23414 also, am thinking our definition o' grindy is different than some folks. if combats is undifferentiated and repetitive, we considers 'em grindy. as such, bg combats were far more grindy than the combats in any other bio crpg... save maybe kotor. da ain't anywhere near the level o' bg grind. how many functionally identical hobgoblin, bandit, gnoll and skeleton attacks did you face in bg? yeah, some o' the darkspawn encounters in the deep roads got repetitive, but the mindless repetition o' near identical bg encounters were diabloesque... and the fact that such encounters were simple hack and slash did not reduce the grind. HA! Good Fun! ps jnpc = joinable npc. in a crpg, all characters NOT the player's is npcs... so jnpc refers to party npcs. *Nods* Never saw the acronym before. And VB? Wow, you dug deeply there. Was still just a lurker over there back then. My definition of grindy is just... lots of combat, plain and simple - but it's certainly not helped if they're repetitive aswell. I do well remember gathering money by sleeping in the area around... the city after Candlekeep. And selling the equipment. I think I just felt the DA: O grinding due to the fact that it was more recent and I had "already" started to get bored with combat. didn't have to dig deep. we has link saved 'cause we gots so tired o' having to correct fo fans regarding their estimations o' the commercial success o' their fave game. bri were a black isle developer, so folks were more likely to believe him than Gromnir. and is not that fo were unsuccessful, but there is a very good reason why black isle and interplay kept trying to squeeze more blood out of the iwd franchise as 'posed to developing fo3. iwd were a better seller and a far less costly game to develop and publish than were the fo games. fo were loved, but it didn't resurrect anything. and vol... well, vol is being vol. inventory, camera, resolution and controller issues aside... *shrug* am having a hard time believing vol played da on the pc, but if he did, it is showing just how... unique is vol. HA! Good Fun! Edited July 16, 2010 by Gromnir "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Volourn Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 (edited) "am having a hard time believing vol played da on the pc, but if he did, it is showing just how... unique is vol." I doubt you know the defintion of unique. If you did, you'd know that my opinion that DA 360 is better than DA PC is far from unique. Edited July 16, 2010 by Volourn DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
Azdeus Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 (edited) didn't have to dig deep. we has link saved 'cause we gots so tired o' having to correct fo fans regarding their estimations o' the commercial success o' their fave game. bri were a black isle developer, so folks were more likely to believe him than Gromnir. and is not that fo were unsuccessful, but there is a very good reason why black isle and interplay kept trying to squeeze more blood out of the iwd franchise as 'posed to developing fo3. iwd were a better seller and a far less costly game to develop and publish than were the fo games. fo were loved, but it didn't resurrect anything. and vol... well, vol is being vol. inventory, camera, resolution and controller issues aside... *shrug* am having a hard time believing vol played da on the pc, but if he did, it is showing just how... unique is vol. HA! Good Fun! Hehe, in my defence; I thought that Fallout was hailed as the game resurrecting cRPG's, atleast by the critics, but my memories may fail me or might be too colored by nostalgia for the right memories to be set correctly. I did'nt claim it was commercially successfull, and critics did love it. Then again, what's more important to me is that I love it. <3 I do wish it had been commercially successfull, that way there would'nt be that - in my opinion - horrible Oblivion mod that it later became. Edited July 16, 2010 by Azdeus Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken
HoonDing Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 At least in BG encounters with goblins, Orcs, lizardmen & other trash mobs were over in five seconds once your party was high level. In DA:O, this is not the case due to the level scaling. Only way to shorten combat is develop a mage to be able to cast Storm of the Century or endlessly spam Cone of Cold... which makes the game even more repetitive than it would be if one would deal with the mobs in a conventional matter. The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.
Gromnir Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 (edited) "am having a hard time believing vol played da on the pc, but if he did, it is showing just how... unique is vol." I doubt you know the defintion of unique. If you did, you'd know that my opinion that DA 360 is better than DA PC is far from unique. vol, as is his norm, misunderstands. we do not thinks your opinion that the console version o' da is superior makes you unique. there is numbers o' folks who believe as does vol... just not for the same reasons. da:o on the xbox 360 (but less so on the ps) is more stable and less likely to suffer some o' the endemic performance issues claimed by many pc players. it is odd that you not mention the most common and most reasonable justification given for da console superiority. as for your actual reasonings... "I did'nt claim it was commercially successfull, and critics did love it." doesn't matter... unless you is suggesting that critical appeal w/o commercial success could/did resurrect the genre. not even the critics who loved fo ever equated their approval with the resurrection o' the genre... 'less you count the guys at nma and codex as critics o' note. HA! Good Fun! Edited July 16, 2010 by Gromnir "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Niten_Ryu Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 Sad truth is that there's a huge segment of gamers who either enjoy the grind, or tolerate it enough play it thru to reach the good parts Let's play Alpha Protocol My misadventures on youtube.
Azdeus Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 "I did'nt claim it was commercially successfull, and critics did love it." doesn't matter... unless you is suggesting that critical appeal w/o commercial success could/did resurrect the genre. HA! Good Fun! Not entirely, no - I'm mostly nitpicking, and retelling what I've read. I don't have any real proof of the opposite at the moment, but what I can say with pretty decent certainty is that it was very much a different beast than the other two games. Sad truth is that there's a huge segment of gamers who either enjoy the grind, or tolerate it enough play it thru to reach the good parts Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken
Tigranes Posted July 17, 2010 Posted July 17, 2010 bri were a black isle developer briosafreak? How did I miss that? O_o But yeah, lifetime sales really don't mean much anymore - even though FO and BG have pretty much camped physical retail shelves for the last 10 years. Still, I can't see the sales requirement for the FOs having been that high - FO2 was made in a year, for instance, and if they hit +200k in the first couple of months it would have been okay, surely. Let's Play: Icewind Dale Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Icewind Dale II Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Divinity II (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG1 (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG2 (In Progress)
Azdeus Posted July 17, 2010 Posted July 17, 2010 Think he means Briareus. Think Tim Cain mentioned FO was in development for roughly three years in his Matt Chat #66 interview. Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken
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