C&VG: Sega rules out Alpha Protocol sequel

[Volourn]

"Well, we'll see with Fallout : New Vegas and Dungeon Siege III what Obsidian can do with a reliable partner."

 

You sound like Troika fanboys.. with all three different publishers. Let's face it. This was Obsidian's fault. Not Sega - who has had their share of successes and failures with developers - so they will be fine.

 

 

"Are we talking about the same Bioware who never tried anything risky in the first place and base all their design decisions on fan feedback?"

 

Kiddin' right? BIO has done a lot more riskier things than Obsidian ever has. It's not even a contest. The only difference is that as much as I like Obsidian overall (I loved MOTB, and enjoyed both NWN2 and KOTOR2, though I loathed SOZ and am dissapointed in AP), is that BIO is much better at all aspects of game devlopment nor do they rely on other companies to tell them what to do.

 

 

"It's just not the kind of game a mainstream gamer will appreciate, fundamentally that's all there's to it."

 

Disagee. AP is exactly the kind of game main stream gamers would like. It's just doesn't stand up against the games its meant to. The biggest problem with AP is not bugs, C7C, writing, combat, or anything else, is that it comes across a rip off of other superior games and tries way too hard and falls flat.

 

 

"I guess SEGA was too stingy to allow another round of Q&A tests during delay."

 

More like it they felt it be a waste of resources. More Q&A would not have made AP any better. It wouldn't have changed the fundamental problem of AP which is just at the cusp of being a good game but has one major flaw that hurts it huge.

 

 

"AP looks better than ME1, that would be the reference"

 

No. No, it doesn't.

 

 

 

"but the release fiasco was all Sega's doing and that ended up hurting the sales."

 

Nope. Asb publisher, Sega shares some of the blame, but the majority of the blame goes to Obsidian. Just like most of the crddit for MOTB's greatness goes to Obsidian. Or should we say Atari desevres credit for it. Ahh.. I see how Obsidian fanboys works. Obsidian gets credit when things go well for them.. but, the publisher gets the blame when things go bad. Seems fair to me.

 

Now, people who were claiming that AP was some huge levelm of financial success can stop the silly. This is Obsidian's first major misstep. I'm hoping DS3 will turn things around (I don't have much hope for FO: NV because it's trapped by crappy FO3 stuff though I'm sure it'llm sell fine based on name value alone).

 

Obsidian: Good try on AP your first original IP. It has some good stuff, but it is what it is. The major flaw killed it from being a great game.

[player1]

"I guess SEGA was too stingy to allow another round of Q&A tests during delay."

 

More like it they felt it be a waste of resources. More Q&A would not have made AP any better. It wouldn't have changed the fundamental problem of AP which is just at the cusp of being a good game but has one major flaw that hurts it huge.

 

And you know that how?!?

[Volourn]

And, you know more Q&A would somehow make it better? Q&A is not magic. Games throughout history have shown that even the buggiest games can succeed and/or be popular. Lack of Q&A, and bugs (btw, I haven't seen much if any bugs in AP myself) is not what hurt AP's chances at success. It's problem was not soemthing that was so eaisly fixable. It had a much more fundamental flaw.

[Darque]

Well, on the plus side, at least we have a single, fun, replayable game that didn't end in a cliffhanger. (I'm looking at you, Psi-Ops!)

 

So it'll always be a complete gaming experience.

[Malcador]

Anyway, this is a shame, but expected. Kind of funny seeing people react to this, also impressive what impact metacritic has - yay for emphasizing the most useless part of a review : the score.

Edited July 6, 2010 by Malcador

[Volourn]

"yay for emphasizing the most useless part of a review : the score. "

 

I actually agree with this 100%.

[Flouride]

Kiddin' right? BIO has done a lot more riskier things than Obsidian ever has. It's not even a contest. The only difference is that as much as I like Obsidian overall (I loved MOTB, and enjoyed both NWN2 and KOTOR2, though I loathed SOZ and am dissapointed in AP), is that BIO is much better at all aspects of game devlopment nor do they rely on other companies to tell them what to do.

 

Disagee. AP is exactly the kind of game main stream gamers would like. It's just doesn't stand up against the games its meant to. The biggest problem with AP is not bugs, C7C, writing, combat, or anything else, is that it comes across a rip off of other superior games and tries way too hard and falls flat.

 

Asb publisher, Sega shares some of the blame, but the majority of the blame goes to Obsidian. Just like most of the crddit for MOTB's greatness goes to Obsidian. Or should we say Atari desevres credit for it. Ahh.. I see how Obsidian fanboys works. Obsidian gets credit when things go well for them.. but, the publisher gets the blame when things go bad. Seems fair to me.

 

Please give us few examples of the huge risks Bioware has taken? As for your bioware nuthugging, cba to even comment.

 

Main stream gamers like rpg mechanics? Since when? Main stream gamers like a game that actually will punish you for your stupidity in developing your character? Since when?

 

No. Most of if not all blame considering release date fiasco goes to Sega. The game was ready, but Sega decided to push it back, not Obsidian. Since when is it good publicity to a game or good pr towards your customers to just remain silent about the release date when the game is supposed to be out during that month? And I'd like you to point out how you can blame Obsidian for Sega's stupid decision to release the game on the most crowded month of 1st half of 2010. Especially if you consider the fact, yes a FACT that the game was ready to be shipped anytime Sega wanted it to go out.

[Volourn]

"Please give us few examples of the huge risks Bioware has taken?"

 

They went from making medical software to game devlopment.

 

They went from action games to rpgs.

 

They completely scratched their plans to make a full fledge RTS to make a D&D game under a publisher (Interplay0 that had utterly failed with the D&D license up to that point (DTU).

 

Heavily focused on NWN's MP/toolset despite the fact their fanbase (including me at the time) much prefered SP games likethe BGs.

 

Jade Empire's combat system definitely not typical BIO.

 

Announcing ME series as a trilogy before ME was even released. That takes ballz.

 

My question, is in what world does a company who has made sequels to two very popular games, and are making two more sequels to popular games taking bigger risks than the company that completely changed industries? Let's not forget that BIo flat out turned down sequeslm to their hit games and gave them to Obsidian to make some easy money while BIo focused on creating their own IPs.

 

 

"As for your bioware nuthugging, cba to even comment."

 

Only an ignorant tool truly believes I'm a BIO 'nuthugger'. If youn actually read my reviews of their games you'd know I'm anything but. It's funny that i criticzed the NWN OC a bunch but people don't remember that. let's not forget I have bought a higher percentage of Obsidian games (100%) comapred to BI0 (about 75%), found KOTOR are overrated. But, yeah, keep deluding yourself.

 

 

"Main stream gamers like rpg mechanics?"

 

BG series. NWN series. DA. FF (yes, turn base and all).

 

" Since when?"

 

Since forever.

 

 

"Main stream gamers like a game that actually will punish you for your stupidity in developing your character?

 

Since when?"

 

Since forever.

 

 

"No. Most of if not all blame considering release date fiasco goes to Sega. The game was ready, but Sega decided to push it back, not Obsidian. Since when is it good publicity to a game or good pr towards your customers to just remain silent about the release date when the game is supposed to be out during that month? And I'd like you to point out how you can blame Obsidian for Sega's stupid decision to release the game on the most crowded month of 1st half of 2010. Especially if you consider the fact, yes a FACT that the game was ready to be shipped anytime Sega wanted it to go out. "

 

Reelase date did not matter. AP's fundamental flaw wouldn't have changed no matter when it was released. This is a fact.

 

 

P.S. I like the way you make contradictory arguments on why AP 'failed'? So.. which is it.. was it Sega's screwing up the release date' or the make believe 'harcoreness' of the game?

Edited July 6, 2010 by Volourn

[Purkake]

"Well, we'll see with Fallout : New Vegas and Dungeon Siege III what Obsidian can do with a reliable partner."

 

You sound like Troika fanboys.. with all three different publishers. Let's face it. This was Obsidian's fault. Not Sega - who has had their share of successes and failures with developers - so they will be fine.

 

 

"Are we talking about the same Bioware who never tried anything risky in the first place and base all their design decisions on fan feedback?"

 

Kiddin' right? BIO has done a lot more riskier things than Obsidian ever has. It's not even a contest. The only difference is that as much as I like Obsidian overall (I loved MOTB, and enjoyed both NWN2 and KOTOR2, though I loathed SOZ and am dissapointed in AP), is that BIO is much better at all aspects of game devlopment nor do they rely on other companies to tell them what to do.

 

 

"It's just not the kind of game a mainstream gamer will appreciate, fundamentally that's all there's to it."

 

Disagee. AP is exactly the kind of game main stream gamers would like. It's just doesn't stand up against the games its meant to. The biggest problem with AP is not bugs, C7C, writing, combat, or anything else, is that it comes across a rip off of other superior games and tries way too hard and falls flat.

 

 

"I guess SEGA was too stingy to allow another round of Q&A tests during delay."

 

More like it they felt it be a waste of resources. More Q&A would not have made AP any better. It wouldn't have changed the fundamental problem of AP which is just at the cusp of being a good game but has one major flaw that hurts it huge.

 

 

"AP looks better than ME1, that would be the reference"

 

No. No, it doesn't.

 

 

 

"but the release fiasco was all Sega's doing and that ended up hurting the sales."

 

Nope. Asb publisher, Sega shares some of the blame, but the majority of the blame goes to Obsidian. Just like most of the crddit for MOTB's greatness goes to Obsidian. Or should we say Atari desevres credit for it. Ahh.. I see how Obsidian fanboys works. Obsidian gets credit when things go well for them.. but, the publisher gets the blame when things go bad. Seems fair to me.

 

Now, people who were claiming that AP was some huge levelm of financial success can stop the silly. This is Obsidian's first major misstep. I'm hoping DS3 will turn things around (I don't have much hope for FO: NV because it's trapped by crappy FO3 stuff though I'm sure it'llm sell fine based on name value alone).

 

Obsidian: Good try on AP your first original IP. It has some good stuff, but it is what it is. The major flaw killed it from being a great game.

Wow, I don't even disagree with most of this. I do wonder what the one major flaw was in your opinion, for me it was more of a combination of things.

 

Also, it's QA, quality assurance, not Q&A

[Malcador]

Eh, not that ballsy to announce ME was a trilogy - like Blizzard, gamers are lemmings for Bioware games. I guess after KOTOR, people forgive any sins and fork it over.

[Volourn]

"Eh, not that ballsy to announce ME was a trilogy - like Blizzard, gamers are lemmings for Bioware games."

 

Then, explain why taht while the majority of BIO RPgs sell in the heighbourhood of 3mil that JE got stuck in the 1.5-2mil rnage and why Sonic RPG was nothing but a blip on the radar despite the fact it had a built in double audience with both Sonic and BIo fans?

 

No company can blindly rely on fans to blindly support them. Fans will drop you like a hot potatoe if you don't deliver what they want. fans don't give a crap about BIO or Blizzard. they care about the games they make because they enjoy them. Do they have leeway? Sure.. but that because their history speaks for themselves. If they stop delivering the goods people will stop buying the goods. This is why certain past popular publishers/devs exither no longer exist or are merely shadows of the past.

 

 

" I do wonder what the one major flaw was in your opinion, for me it was more of a combination of things. "

 

Oh. AP has more than one flaw (as well as more than one thing it does right) but when I refer to '1 fundamental flaw' I'm mainly referring to why it failed with the 'masses'.

 

 

"Also, it's QA, quality assurance, not Q&A"

 

Yeah, don't know why I added the &. I should know better.

[Malcador]

So JE sold, but not as well. Ok, I guess that risk failed horribly. You're giving consumers far too much credit, most obey metacritic and reviewers are suspect. Bioware's games aren't crap, but it's not as if the public is really looking at them honestly.

[Purkake]

" I do wonder what the one major flaw was in your opinion, for me it was more of a combination of things. "

 

Oh. AP has more than one flaw (as well as more than one thing it does right) but when I refer to '1 fundamental flaw' I'm mainly referring to why it failed with the 'masses'.

May I inquire as to the specific nature or this alleged flaw?

[Malcador]

Lack of tight, slick gameplay.

[Purkake]

Your words are strange and foreign to me, good sir.

 

The gameplay could have used a LOT of tightening, though.

[Malcador]

To be honest, I'm not sure what that even means to tighten the gameplay

 

Enemy AI, especially with regard to alarms, was a downside for me. Other than that, I guess I just have low standards

[Flouride]

"Main stream gamers like rpg mechanics?"

 

BG series. NWN series. DA. FF (yes, turn base and all).

 

" Since when?"

 

Since forever.

 

 

"Main stream gamers like a game that actually will punish you for your stupidity in developing your character?

 

Since when?"

 

Since forever.

 

 

Reelase date did not matter. AP's fundamental flaw wouldn't have changed no matter when it was released. This is a fact.

 

BG series and NWN series are nowhere near the amount what hit main stream games sell. But they are hits in their own genre.

 

Kids thesedays get really easily frustrated if a game is too hard or if it doesn't blow their mind since the very beginning of the game.

 

Release date does matter when it comes to sales, it would have mattered on reviews as well if the game had been out before ME2. It won't fix flaws you might see with the game though, I give you that. I personally enjoeyed the game more than I enjoyed ME2 and didn't see any fundamental flaws in it. Not that ME2 is bad game either.

[Calax]

I don't think that SEGA own Alpha Protocol IP is a problem.

The game could get some other name than Alpha Protocol 2.

 

I hope Obsidian will not give up, and they will bring to the players one day "Beta Protocol". (Remember Monoliths Project Origin (FEAR 2), the renamed to FEAR 2: Project Origin? Hope is still here)

 

It should be in their interest to bring a sequel to this awesome story driven game.

 

 

Sorry for my english.

Actually the Project Origin thing was mainly due to how the rights were handled. Monolith had the rights to the world and characters, Their publishers had the rights to the FEAR name.

 

Also, MOST of your sales on a game are going to be within the first month. Sometimes there's a bit of a sleeper hit where a game sticks around for a while selling new copies for LONG after it's been produced, or becomes a bit of an underground hit like Deus Ex where it isn't really picked up by the mainstream but the geek culture becomes "IT WAS AWESOME!" in 3 years.

[Sannom]

By the way reading comments like 'Obsidian sucks, this would have been great if Bioware did it' feels like I'm living in a bizzarro world.

 

Yeah, I wanted to get in and point out that if Bioware had made the game, writing wouldn't have been so good, stealth wouldn't have been an option, and SIE would have been 30 and a lot more stingy than she is right now. Come on, it wouldn't have been "better gameplay", it would have been a really different gameplay, probably slickest, but still different!

 

why Sonic RPG was nothing but a blip on the radar despite the fact it had a built in double audience with both Sonic and BIo fans?

 

Not wanting to bash Bioware or anything, but I think those two fandoms just don't overlap that much. Bioware fans were probably unaware they were the one doing it, and sonic fans were just disappointed by a game that is not really good.

In fact, gamers are lemmings for Bioware when they just do "more of the same" : the gameplay, at its core, is focused on combat, with interesting leveling mechanics, and entertaining plots and characters for the "RPG" part. They wrap it up in pleasant colors, and hop, another big hitter. No matter if they recycle all their characters from game to game, people likes it! That's also how Blizzard functions...

[Thorton_AP]

Are people making excuses for Obsidian again?

 

It's unfortunate that the game didn't sell well, but I don't think this is really Sega's fault. Nor Red Dead Redemptions fault. Given the similarities to Deus Ex, I think it's more just a demonstration of the changing in the gaming audience. Which is reflected in the reviews.

 

Those are not excuses. Those are "facts"

 

Yes, Obsidian could have done a better job as well, but the release fiasco was all Sega's doing and that ended up hurting the sales.

Not really sure if they were afraid of Dragon Age that much or whether the initial pr company they had handling the marketing dropped the ball completely and thus they had to push back the release date to actually get some marketing for the game.

 

Just like with movie box office in gaming as well the release date will decide a lot in some cases. Releasing a game right after a massive hit such RDR (and against Alan Wake, UFC 2010 etc.) is not wise from a marketing nor a sales point of view. Nor is it very wise to go against Spiderman 3 or say Shrek 4 in movie theaters.

 

If games like RDR, Alan Wake, and UFC 2010 significantly hurt the sales for Alpha Protocol, then I'd suspect the impending releases of Dragon Age, and Modern Warfare 2, would have significantly hurt the sales for Alpha Protocol as well.

 

I don't think that the reviews would have been significantly different had they been released then. I had people at work ask about this game, and the word of mouth was all about the clunky controls. I tried to persuade some to reconsider, but it was more just an eye opener for what people expect from these types of games.

 

If it's Sega's Fault, it's approving the current design implementation and funding it. It didn't sound like AP had the smoothest development cycle, and while I looooove the game, I don't think it appeals to the bulk of the gaming market at this time.

 

 

As a user of the game, I am glad of at least one thing they did add to the game during the delay (equipment comparisons).

Edited July 6, 2010 by Thorton_AP

[Niten_Ryu]

It was smart choice for Sega to pull out of any future Alpha Protocol projects. Obsidian and Black Isle before that just don't have the talent to design good combat mechanics. They can write good storylines, create interesting characters, make interesting choices for the player but that ain't enough nowadays. And certainly not enough in first person game.

 

Whatever Obsidian do next, they just need to rip off Spinter Cell / RDR / Modern Warfare / Diablo / WoW / whatever combat mechanics and focus their talent to what they do best.

[Wrath of Dagon]

"It's just not the kind of game a mainstream gamer will appreciate, fundamentally that's all there's to it."

 

Disagee. AP is exactly the kind of game main stream gamers would like. It's just doesn't stand up against the games its meant to. The biggest problem with AP is not bugs, C7C, writing, combat, or anything else, is that it comes across a rip off of other superior games and tries way too hard and falls flat.

What superior games has AP ripped off?

Obsidian: Good try on AP your first original IP. It has some good stuff, but it is what it is. The major flaw killed it from being a great game.

You still haven't told us what this fundamental flaw is.

[Flouride]

If games like RDR, Alan Wake, and UFC 2010 significantly hurt the sales for Alpha Protocol, then I'd suspect the impending releases of Dragon Age, and Modern Warfare 2, would have significantly hurt the sales for Alpha Protocol as well.

 

I don't think that the reviews would have been significantly different had they been released then. I had people at work ask about this game, and the word of mouth was all about the clunky controls. I tried to persuade some to reconsider, but it was more just an eye opener for what people expect from these types of games.

 

True, but at least on that original release date it didn't have the stamp "twice delayed" and if you are going to postpone the game don't put it against even more titles. There were some months (yes after ME2) when there weren't as much competition being released.

 

Reviews would have compared it to ME1 and not ME2. At least in my opinion ME2 was more of a main stream game (with limited character building, "better" gameplay as in, rpg mechanics didn't effect shooting as much as in ME1, which was one of the things AP got **** in reviews) than ME1 which had more RPG mechanics in it.

 

Would either one of these been drastic enough for us to get a sequel? Who knows, but better release date and/or being released before ME2 would have helped a bit.

[fuZZ]

well starts to make me think if they will now patch the game or just give us a big **** YOU!!!

[Bos_hybrid]

What is it with everyone wanting sequels nowadays.