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And some people slobber all over anything new with a bit of marketing like a labrador puppy after a treat. That's hardly Road to Damascus stuff.

 

A list of Steamworks benefits, from a developer/ publisher's POV

 

1) DRM.

1a) Not that Steam prevents piracy, of course, though like most online DRM it is at least good at preventing pre Day 1 piracy.

1b) Prevents 2nd hand sales, at least in theory.

2) Monitoring- allows analysis of well, everything game related. Theoretically useful for patching, practically I don't imagine it's used much as I doubt most publishers care enough.

3) Built in MP infrastructure

4) Built in DLC handling

5) Free

6) Misc other features (achievements/ cloud saving)

7) Built in, vocal, fanbase that will defend anything Valve/ Steam to the hilt and beyond.

 

3-5 can be covered by viLe as well as an alternative, free, middleware. The big points are probably 3-5, and especially 7. The number of people who rejoice at Steam exclusivity as if it's manna from heavan- and as if they wouldn't be able to buy on Steam without the exclusivity- is astounding, and it can hardly be said that any other DRM except for the much neglected and maligned None has anywhere near as much (any) support.

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Irrelevant. Opportunities to acquires the software in other ways still exist. This sounds like Mom and Pop small time retailer crying because they don't have the economies of scale to compete with Walmart. What I have to say: Muffin.
Uh, no. If "opportunities to acquire the software in other ways still exist" but those opportunities still force you to deal with Steam... they don't really exist at all.

 

Also, don't throw words like "irrelevant" around without being completely certain of their meaning. Being compared to Vol is not something to be proud of, in any case.

 

 

Since you state that you can use Steamworks but not Steam itself (I am unaware of this), are you saying that game developers continue to voluntarily use both Steam and Steamworks? Does this mean that mandatory Steam usage is actually a decision the developer is making? (and before you bemoan me for sidestepping and cherry picking points, as well as making assumptions... but I guess you probably only did it because I did first right :p After all, you don't need to ask the devs why they use Steamworks: You've already drawn your own conclusions. I'm reminded of Something Awful right now...)
Is there a point to this rambling, or...?

 

I posted some of the obvious advantages for devs that the Steam-Steamworks combo offers. Because I'm not an inside source, you suggest that whatever I say is baseless and therefore not worth rebutting ("assumptions"). Please, stop with these flagrant sophisms and address my points instead of attacking my credibility.

 

 

We were discussing your incorrect assumption that devs needs to use Steamworks to use Steam as a distribution service. :rolleyes:
Uh, no. If anything, that was Mamoulian confusing Steam and Steamworks... and assuming that Mafia 2 would be Steam exclusive, which is false (though I did notice that you didn't bother to clear it up, either). However, I felt it was sufficiently clear he was referring to Steam as a distribution and control service and not Steamworks as an API -- because otherwise the anti-monopoly comment makes no sense (even if in fact almost all games using Steamworks work through Steam). But hey, obfuscating the point does work sometimes, right? I know it forced me to read a few pages back just to understand what the **** you were talking about. Congrats, you made me waste five minutes. Yay you.

 

 

So it's a special case because you like it?
No, it's a special case for the reasons listed. Instead of trying to pick every little statement apart could you, you know, address the actual reasoning?

 

 

You stated "there are no alternatives to Steam."
Which is factually true. There are no alternatives to Steam for some games. Which is what I said.

 

 

I point out a similar example, and you basically go "but, but, but."
No, you made an invalid comparison, and I simply pointed out the reasons why it is invalid. It's called a rebuttal -- get used to it, this is how discussions work. On the other hand, misrepresenting the opponent and/or their points and then attacking the misrepresentation you built yourself is not a rebuttal, it's a textbook example of a straw man.

 

 

There are plenty of games that I can only get from a single source (Matrix Games, for example), and there are plenty of games that force me to use DRMs that aren't required for selling a game (oh, we made an excuse for that one too now didn't we... I think that was Tigranes). I go to smaller retail stores and frequently find that games I want to buy aren't in stock, so I have to go to a big chain. Especially if the game is not a particularly big release.
Yeah, that's pretty cool and I'm really glad for you... but why don't you go back a few posts and answer the question of the justification for the mandatory installation of a software that is not necessary for the game to work or to protect IP rights? It is, as you admitted yourself, an opt-in service. This is the central issue we are discussing (no, really), and not why your small but lovely games dealer around the corner doesn't stock Eye of the Beholder anymore.

 

 

Since developers seem to feel there is an advantage to using Steamworks (instead of just utilizing Steam as a distribution service which is an alternative), you seem to be advocating that the option and benefits that developers get with Steamworks should be denied to the developers? It's hard to make sense here since you're apparently willing to make concessions for other similar business models if you like the service they provide.
No. Note that I haven't advocated the anti-trust measures taken against MS. There was a thread about it here, in Skeeter's I think, look it up. I felt it was unfair and retarded and I still do. Which means I think a similar action against Valve wouldn't be warranted.

 

However, that doesn't stop me from despising Steam, and the fact that some games demand its use. All I want is control over the **** that's installed on my computer, control over the **** I pay a license for, and companies not infringing my rights so their profits are increased. If that hurts the options of developers, well, too bad.

 

 

It's irrelevant to look at ONLY the digital distribution schemes if it only looks at a smaller subset of the total sales.
You know, I was thinking why this statement is so difficult to disprove in an absolute sense. And I reached the conclusion that it's because it's neither a reasoning nor a statement of facts; it's just an opinion.

 

Digital distribution is a subset or segment of the gaming market, yes? Valve does hold a dominant position over this subset, yes? So, the question of whether it's relevant to examine if Valve does hold a dominant position over this segment is one of perspective, yes? However, a similar argument could be made that OS are a subset of "software", and therefore, it's irrelevant to look simply at OS when trying to establish whether MS was trying to establish a monopoly. O-kay.

 

 

Furthermore, looking back, we clearly aren't specifically talking discussing digital distribution since he already mentioned his grievance about RETAIL games with Steamworks requiring Steam to be installed.
This is especially precious. Does this means we are to talk at length about your political views or Mom and Pop's dealer, because you happened to mention them to support your arguments in the course of the discussion?

 

The point is that it's particularly obvious that those games don't need Steam to work or be delivered to the customer -- it's being installed for other reasons. This was brought up to support my stance on Valve's competition tactics and how Steam implementation is a product of those.

Edited by 213374U

- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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And just because I love to break the board's quote limit:

Since this all started from a hope from MW that the EU would intervene, I'm sure numbers man was a big supporter of the Eurocommies intervening on Microsoft's Internet Explorer distribution as well (I was not).
Not quite.

 

 

what it will likely mean is that Steamworks will no longer be allowed to exist in its current form. I believe that there's a greater chance of this ****ing over developers that obviously see some value in using Steamworks, since they are choosing to use Steamworks for the games.
Maybe, maybe not. The EC actions didn't destroy MS, IE or their ability to compete. And also, you are apparently forgetting that Steamworks implementation does not necessarily mean Steam distribution, exclusive or otherwise, so the chances of an anti-trust package being passed against Valve affecting the viability of Steamworks and its business model are reduced even more.

- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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Some people are just allergic to new things/ideas.

Things are not good because they are new. They are just new.

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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An unnecessary qualification - why, are you getting defensive, Purk? :lol:

 

You can probably attribute your original point to people that still refuse to buy anything without a box, I guess, but as far as Steam goes it really doesn't have much to do with it.

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Some people are just allergic to new things/ideas.

 

Remember change is a vector, not a scalar.

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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An unnecessary qualification - why, are you getting defensive, Purk? :lol:

 

You can probably attribute your original point to people that still refuse to buy anything without a box, I guess, but as far as Steam goes it really doesn't have much to do with it.

This isn't only about DD and Steam, it's about things like OnLive, iOS/Android gaming, changing old franchises and generally enjoying games that might not be as complex or story-heavy as some older ones, but are still fun.

 

I'm not saying that new things are good/bad/whatever, but I see potential and I'm willing to give most things a try before I disregard them.

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http://www.gametrailers.com/video/exclusiv...universe/702050

 

*SQUEEEEEEE*

 

That's actually the best super hero action I've seen in wayy to long.

 

That was great. They should just make a movie with that as the starting point.

 

I don't read comic books, so just how much kryptonite is there? Luthor seems to find it in abundance without any problem whatsoever.

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Seems like a stupid premise, knocked-off from Marvel's "Secret Invasion" plotline. There's an entire Green Lantern Corps that would have destroyed that threat before it even reached Earth.

The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.

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http://www.gametrailers.com/video/exclusiv...universe/702050

 

*SQUEEEEEEE*

 

That's actually the best super hero action I've seen in wayy to long.

 

That was great. They should just make a movie with that as the starting point.

 

I don't read comic books, so just how much kryptonite is there? Luthor seems to find it in abundance without any problem whatsoever.

Well there's the entire remnants of a planet, and a super villain made out of the stuff.

 

Seems like a stupid premise, knocked-off from Marvel's "Secret Invasion" plotline. There's an entire Green Lantern Corps that would have destroyed that threat before it even reached Earth.

the GLC has been murdered before, and from the sound of it braniac has managed to siphon power off from the heroes to weaken them.

Victor of the 5 year fan fic competition!

 

Kevin Butler will awesome your face off.

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Is there a good kicking off point into getting into comic books? When I hear people talking about it, it seems like so many characters have died then come to life in some reincarnation, I really have no idea where to begin.

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Trade Paperbacks. They usually have some of the older stories slapped together to give you basic review of the older stuff (Marvels ESSENTIAL line and DC's Classic line both are just reprints of old stories).

 

Or pick up one of the Event series. HOnestly what really got me in was finding a Green Lantern TPB which lead me to JLA which led me to Superman.

 

The GL stuff is some of the best currently in Comics. With the Return of Hal Jordan, Sinestro Corps War, and Blackest Night trio all tying together beautifully, PLUS the work in from Infinite Crisis, and Final Crisis (Ok, so Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds) has Geoff Johns at his best.

 

 

For awesome Classic material, get Kingdom Come, Watchmen, and Marvels. Marvels gives you a basic view of the Marvel Universe up to a point. Kingdom Come gives you a basic introduction to the characters in DC, and Watchmen is... well... Watchmen.

 

Have people died and come back to life? yes, but it's usually not this huge thing for people ;) It's rarely mentioned after a while.

Victor of the 5 year fan fic competition!

 

Kevin Butler will awesome your face off.

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Is there a good kicking off point into getting into comic books? When I hear people talking about it, it seems like so many characters have died then come to life in some reincarnation, I really have no idea where to begin.

Unless you really want superhero comics, there's much better stuff out there than anything from Marvel or DC. CrossGen for instance has some brilliant fantasy/sci-fi/detective/samurai/sword & sorcery comic book series, that all form part of one big grand design storyline.

The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.

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