What's with developers' obsession with D&D?

[Macolio]

Hi, this is my first post. I found this site while googling for Chris Avellone. I hadn't heard of Obsidian prior to that, so I was glad to find out so many Black Isle heavy-hitters joined up to form a new team. I look forward to your new game.

 

I have a feeling Delaware will be a PNP-wannabe RPG, that's why I'm writing this post.

 

What I was wondering is why there seems to be a focus on D&D on the part of PCRPG developers. I'm a console gamer but I play your games because they have a usually great story (if not story, then dialogue), good soundtracks and decent gameplay. I think D&D really hurts the enjoyment of CRPGs from us non-D&D fans because it has what I feel is a boring combat system where the characters barely improve through-out the game. I believe console-style combat and character development is the way to go, with game progression giving you cool new spells that you can cast without worrying about resting (MP system), and level-ups increasing your abilities beyond just a better dice roll.

 

I know typical PCRPG developers are the type who play PNP D&D, but is that the only reason you make D&D-like RPGs? Surely you'd access a broader audience by removing D&D from your games? Losing it doesn't mean dumbing down, Final Fantasy X had some amazing tactical battles that were more tense than anything I experienced in the BI games. In an ideal RPG, we'd have your freedom in character development, non-linearity, and excellent storytelling coupled with console-style gameplay.

 

Also, to Chris Avellone, if he's reading this...what happened with Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance? When I heard you were writing the story prior to its release back in 2001, I recommended it to everyone and was hoping we'd finally reached the day where console RPGs would have storylines that didn't suck, but the result was very disappointing, with a generic storyline with almost no dialogue. Since you're no longer a Black Isle/Interplay employee, hopefully you can tell us (well, me) what happened without worrying about PR. If you feel you did a good job on the script, then I apologize and hope you aren't offended by what I said.

[DemonKing]

D&D is frequently used in computer games because it already has an audience (PNP gamers) to appeal to - the same way that LucasArts makes a lot of Star Wars games - because they know there is already an existing fanbase who will likely buy the product.

 

Now using a licence has advantages and disadvantages, but in theory at least it will usually guarentee you a certain number of sales based on brand recognition alone.

 

There were only 3 D&D CRPG products released last year and two of those were expansion packs, so I would hardly say the market is flooded with them at the moment.

 

I would certainly like to see more.

[Kevin Lynch]

I'd first like to mention that BG:DA is not listed by Interplay as a member of the RPG genre, but as an Action game (if you look at their game list). That alone would be a big hint as to the style of gameplay.

 

As to D&D, the reason behind games using it was already explained above. For my part, I don't mind D&D games, as such, but I would like to see developers do more original work, with entirely new types of gameplay based on things not yet seen by the gaming public. The "sci-fi / fantasy" genre lends itself well to creative thought, and we definitely need more creativity, from the bottom up, in our PC games. I don't think there's a particular glut of D&D games on the market at the moment, though, and there appears to be plenty of room for everyone.

 

Remember, the players drive the economy of game development. If players stopped buying D&D, they'd stop making them. As long as they can make money off D&D, there will be D&D available. That is the obsession; it's called "business".

[Sargallath Abraxium]

Hi, this is my first post. I found this site while googling for Chris Avellone. I hadn't heard of Obsidian prior to that, so I was glad to find out so many Black Isle heavy-hitters joined up to form a new team. I look forward to your new game.

 

I have a feeling Delaware will be a PNP-wannabe RPG, that's why I'm writing this post.

 

What I was wondering is why there seems to be a focus on D&D on the part of PCRPG developers. I'm a console gamer but I play your games because they have a usually great story (if not story, then dialogue), good soundtracks and decent gameplay. I think D&D really hurts the enjoyment of CRPGs from us non-D&D fans because it has what I feel is a boring combat system where the characters barely improve through-out the game. I believe console-style combat and character development is the way to go, with game progression giving you cool new spells that you can cast without worrying about resting (MP system), and level-ups increasing your abilities beyond just a better dice roll.

 

I know typical PCRPG developers are the type who play PNP D&D, but is that the only reason you make D&D-like RPGs? Surely you'd access a broader audience by removing D&D from your games? Losing it doesn't mean dumbing down, Final Fantasy X had some amazing tactical battles that were more tense than anything I experienced in the BI games. In an ideal RPG, we'd have your freedom in character development, non-linearity, and excellent storytelling coupled with console-style gameplay.

...I knows I was told already 'bout pickin' fights an' all that, but I jus' had ta say, amigo, that ye sounds like da only games ya likes be da ones that ye can powergame yer arse off in...ye said yer a big story fan, yet compared ta PC games, most Console games, which ya said be yer style, be weak on story an' utterly cheddar on combat...if'n ya havna yet, try an' find yerself a copy o' Planescape: Torment; this game may change yer attitude towards PC D&D RPGs...

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

[Vvornth]

With D&D a developer does not need to create its own "system" something that can be a very grueling task. In addition there are many good D&D settings to choose from with a D&D license such as Greyhawk (ToEE), Ravenloft (Strahd's Possession), Dark Sun (Wake of The Ravager), Dragonlance (Death Knights of Krynn) etc. I actually thing Forgotten Realms is the most overrated and bland universe of their entire selection.

[MrBrown]

@Macolio:

 

I agree you on the resting thing. It serves no purpose but to waste the player's time in most games these days.

 

As for the "console style character development", I'm not sure what you mean. If you're saying that your characters should be getting more than just a simple bonus to their attack roll and HP, then I agree. I think the best idea is to make character development interesting and give the player alot of choices. Not sure if some kind of a clear PC-RPGs vs. Console-RPGs division really works here, though.

 

Lastly, don't pay attention to Sargy here.

[Vvornth]

The latest strip of Penny Arcade deals with resting in MP games.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3

 

And I fully agree with it. No one needs to get stuck with a game for the better part of the day.

[Spook]

With D&D a developer does not need to create its own "system" something that can be a very grueling task. In addition there are many good D&D settings to choose from with a D&D license such as Greyhawk (ToEE), Ravenloft (Strahd's Possession), Dark Sun (Wake of The Ravager), Dragonlance (Death Knights of Krynn) etc. I actually thing Forgotten Realms is the most overrated and bland universe of their entire selection.

I miss Darksun, planescape and Ravenloft. Sniff!

[Aeon]

i play both console RPGs and PCRPGs a fair bit. and i'd have to say that while dnd is a giant pain in the arse, its far, far better than the FF system. simply due to flexibility, and character development.

 

in FF a level up means next to nothing, because other than maybe gaining a new spell all that happens is an increase in a couple of stats. whereas the dnd system allows alot more customization, especially for certain classes.

 

but i'd still be voting SPECIAL as the best RPG system ever.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

With the exception of Final Fantasy VIII's system, which is likely the only in the series to be the best in customization.

[Tigranes]

Yes, but the Junction did get very tedious. Besides, levels mean next to nothing in Final Fantasy - nobody bothers to check what happened when they levelled up. It was all magic/equipment/materia/abilities/whatever.

[birdiedude]

I have to somewhat agree with Macolio, when was the last time a DnD setting really helped a game in and of itself?

 

I don't think PnP players are such a majority anymore that they are a built in fan base worth anything, especially compared to the Final Fantasy fan-base (FFX-2 sold 1.2 million in Japan opening weekend, Kingdom hearts recently broke 3 mill, KotOR was at 500,000 last I heard).

 

As far as the systems go, it should technically be possible to do DnD easier on a PC, as the computer can do all of the math . . . but then again that loses so much that it isn't worth the tradeoff.

 

Settings aren't that great either as making a game fit the setting is probably more work than it's worth. Once again SquareEnix and many other console companies have had little trouble designing their own settings.

 

Finally well designed leveling schemes in most console games offer either a better opportunity to customize your character or simple more positive reinforcement that you are actually doing something with your character. Fighting tooth and nail for levels just doesn't work well in video games.

[Kasoroth]

I think D&D really hurts the enjoyment of CRPGs from us non-D&D fans because it has what I feel is a boring combat system where the characters barely improve through-out the game. I believe console-style combat and character development is the way to go, with game progression giving you cool new spells that you can cast without worrying about resting (MP system), and level-ups increasing your abilities beyond just a better dice roll.

I don't think that D&D is the best RPG rule set around (in fact I like SPECIAL better), I like it a lot better than the console games that I've seen. All the console games I've played have had absurd hit point and damage inflation, where characters can do thousands of points of damage and barely injure their opponent. I don't really see what the fascination with big numbers is. Personally, I think D&D has too much improvement in characters, at least the way it's implemented in most computer games, which often go from level 1 to level 15 or more within a single, often relatively short game.

 

It seems to me like people seem to have a very short attention span and want to be constantly leveling up their characters. For me, I'd perfer that the game focus on doing stuff, and have level gaining just be something that happens along the way, not a primary focus of the game itself. I like to have a chance to get used to my character at a particular level for at least a few hours before I gain another one.

 

The whole resting to rememorize spells rule of D&D was originally created to make spellcasters conserve their spells, but since most computer games don't have time limits (although Fallout 1 did), and a lot of games will let you rest just about anywhere, including the middle of the enemy fortress you're in the process of assaulting, the original purpose of the rule has been nullified, and it has become merely an annoyance that requires players to rest every few combats to get their spells back.

 

The first time I played Baldur's Gate 2, I only rested once in chapters 1 and 2 combined, and spent most of the time with low hit points, not many spells left, and penalties for being tired. I played it as if the party was actually trying to rescue Imoen as quickly as possible. There isn't really a time limit in the game, so I could have rested as much as I wanted, done tons of side quests, gained a bunch of levels, and gone into each new area with full hit points and spells, but th egame wouldn't have been nearly as much fun. The disappointing thing about that game was that all the interesting resource management had to be self-imposed, and didn't really make a difference in the game. It would have been much better if the game had acknowledged my attempt at haste in some way, perhaps by messing up Irenicus' evil plans in some fairly minor way at least. Some people don't like needing to manage their resources and conserve spells and potions, other people do.

 

There are plenty of console style games available on consoles, and way too few "PC-style" RPGs being made these days, and I'd like to see more games that require a bit of resource conservation.

 

-Kasoroth

[Tiliqua]

I think D&D really hurts the enjoyment of CRPGs from us non-D&D fans because it has what I feel is a boring combat system where the characters barely improve through-out the game.

How can you say characters barely improve throughout the game? I find a huge difference even between a Level 1 character and the same character at Level 8.

 

I really like 3.5 Ed. It's flexible, balanced and logical within it's parameters. EQ is a D&D derivitive and is hugely popular, the BG series, IWD and NWN were also very successful, so I don't think your claim that D&D is market death stands up to analysis.

 

D&D is a proven fantasy system, if you're going to make a fantasy game it makes sense to use it.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

in FF a level up means next to nothing, because other than maybe gaining a new spell all that happens is an increase in a couple of stats. whereas the dnd system allows alot more customization, especially for certain classes.

It depends which FF because they all have very different "level up" criteria.

 

The thing with FF games is its rarely just about levels anyway. Unlike D&D in most cases your powers are not directly linked to your levels (IV being the obvious exception).

 

Levels are generally secondary to things like junctions, job abilities, dress spheres,learning abilities from equipment etc.

 

Yes if you take the level alone then thats pretty close to the mark. However unlike FF D&D dosnt have the extra's. Which means that in D&D levels is all you get so you have to make them that much more interesting. Generally unless its a spell or feat level you get some more hps and an increase in BAB and thats it.

 

If you play FFX-2 new game (reward for completion) then you start will all the dress spheres(as long as you collected them previously of course ). And you can see first hand just how their power levels vary independent of levels.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I don't think PnP players are such a majority anymore that they are a built in fan base worth anything, especially compared to the Final Fantasy fan-base (FFX-2 sold 1.2 million in Japan opening weekend, Kingdom hearts recently broke 3 mill, KotOR was at 500,000 last I heard).

The PS2 title{Kingdom Hearts}, released in September 2002, has sold more than 2 million units in North America, 1.2 million units in Japan, and 820,000 units in Europe

 

The Japanese are far more accepting of different settings for some reason. Possibly because compared to us they have in the past had way more RPG games released so peoples perceptions are not quite so narrow. I heard something really funny on a message board once which was along the lines of "If its not D&D then its not a proper RPG".

 

The Japanese on the other hand take all the things that are normally argued over. Like mixing Sci Fi and Fantasy. Or having fire arms and swords in the same game totally in their stride.On the other hand if you have access to it and it boosts your sales by 50-75% then that is reason enough to use D&D.

[Slowtrain]

D&D is killing crpgs, maybe not financially but certainly creatively. D&D was built to be a tabletop ruleset, used in a dynamic environment led by a DM and creatively interpreted by any number of live bodies playing together,

 

Using it for a pc game is assinine. Quite similar to using a motorcycle to vacuum your living room simply because they both have motors.

[AlanC9]

Mind explaining how D&D is killing CRPG creativity? Is it because you end up in one of the standard D&D settings -- FR or Greyhawk?

 

Note that Planescape went outside the standard D&D world. And didn't sell.

 

Maybe it's the consumers and not the system.

[Slowtrain]

Mind explaining how D&D is killing CRPG creativity? Is it because you end up in one of the standard D&D settings -- FR or Greyhawk?

 

Note that Planescape went outside the standard D&D world. And didn't sell.

 

Maybe it's the consumers and not the system.

No its not the setting. Its the fact that D&D crphs have almost 0 varaition from each other in terms of the ruleset.

 

PS:T might have actually been a good game if it hadn't been bogged down by such a stupid ruleset. Even to make it begin to work, the devs had to make "house rules" type changes to some of the D&D standards.

 

Crpgs need more new and interesting rulesets. Rulesets that are built from the ground up for a microprocessor strengths and not a human DM's strengths..

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Maybe it's the consumers and not the system.

Yep cant really blame the developers for giving the people what they want.

[Slowtrain]

Why people enjoying playing games with the exact same ruleset over and over again is beyond me. Half the fun of playing a new crpg is seeing all the new stuff the devs created for that game. In any D&D crpg, you start it up already knowing about 90% of the games content already. You know, classes, races, spells, weapons, thac0/bab, AC etc and so forth. How many times can I choose magic missile and chromatic orb as my level 1 spells before I put a bullet in my head?

 

The only thing you don't "know" is probably the story (although if the devs are just adapting previously written modules then you even know that as well), and very few D&D crpgs have stories that are interesting enough to carry the game by themselves.

 

I have no problem with D&D as a tabletop gaming system, but I have problems with it as a crpg system and major problems with it being used over and over and over again as a crpg system,

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Why people enjoying playing games with the exact same ruleset over and over again is beyond me.

[Slowtrain]

 

Well I can only speak for myself. But I was never overly concerned with rules anyway. As long as they work and dont get in the way then I really dont care what they are.

 

Of course I have my favourites. Like the FF Job System but rules should drive the rest of the game not be the focus of the game.

 

I would imagine the popularity is for the same reason as the d20 system taking over in PnP. You can play the game without having to learn the rules each time.

eh, ok.

 

I always consider learning new rules and mechanics half the fun of any computer game, but I guess others don't.

 

However, I also enjoy meeting new monsters for the first time, wielding new weapons, trying new spells etc and so forth.

 

D&D don't walk that walk when its being done for the fiftieht time, ya dig?

 

[Schazzwozzer]

I openly question whether or not it really is true that adopting a pnp ruleset really saves so much time as compared to building one from the ground up. When you create a game using D&D, you're trying to adapt the needs, goals, and strengths of your game to a ruleset. You're building around the ruleset instead of building the ruleset around what the game should accomplish. Instead of saying, "our engine can do flying pretty well, so let's include a levitation spell", the developers have to think in terms of, "well, there's this spell. Let's see if we can get it to work in the game."

 

On the other hand, when you're building a ruleset around what you want the game to be, it would seem that you could much more easily control the scope of the game and maintain a certain tightness in design. No half-implementation of game systems. No ridiculous stipulations or inconsistencies in the story or game logic so that a certain race/class combination can be considered viable. You do what you need to do and that's it.

[Spook]

Well if they made the game to follow DD3.5 in options of character creation you can have a very different character depending on how you build it, and thereby different challange in the game.

 

Different game mechanisms will hardly make a good game. It is the story, and if it is entertaining, that make me play through a game.

 

But then on the other hand most games have been fight yourself to the big boss, and fight to death. In other word big Hp or powerfull spells or die.

 

As for settings I realy think they make the difference. I must admit that I have become tired of all these Forgottenrealm games.