North Korea attacks and sinks South Korean ship, killing 46 people

[HoonDing]

The problem with exerting that kind of force is that renders deterrence useless and then there is nothing stopping the rest of the world coming full strength on them.

 

The problem with that is... well, destroying one of the largest metropolises in the world with over 15 million inhabitants, with knock on effects on the world economy.

And even that isn't the full extent of the problem. We aren't talking about Iraq which has had crippling sanctions, a military which had been functionally obliterated fifteen years previous and large areas of its nominal territory not even in its control. NK has ballistic missiles, nukes, chemical weapons, submarines that are apparently good enough to sink a western warship in a hot zone, truly stupendous amounts of artillery, a properly functioning and reasonably modern AA infrastructure and seventy years to stockpile and prepare. If they feel pressured enough they will use the whole lot, and that means missiles potentially nuclear and if not nuclear then chemical/ biological hitting Japan and anywhere else with US bases or sympathies, submarines sinking merchant ships etc etc as well as the colossal damage done to the South from an invasion by a million man army.

 

And yeah, they'd lose eventually but that won't magically repair the damage done in the meantime. Whatever the west does will be specifically tailored to avoid doing anything significant because while the North talks a good messianic apocalyptico we definitely don't and have little choice other than to let the Chinese prop them up and hope they eventually sort themselves out. Everything else is just window dressing.

One nuclear EMP should largely eliminate NK as an international threat.

[Walsingham]

I think part of the problem for me is that I can't think of anything we could do to the North Koreans which would be worse than what is already happening to the poor bastards.

[Orogun01]

I think part of the problem for me is that I can't think of anything we could do to the North Koreans which would be worse than what is already happening to the poor bastards.

True, but we shouldn't focus on Korea as a whole and more on Kim Jong. Take out the head and ensure that the proper succession follows.

[Arkan]

I think part of the problem for me is that I can't think of anything we could do to the North Koreans which would be worse than what is already happening to the poor bastards.

True, but we shouldn't focus on Korea as a whole and more on Kim Jong. Take out the head and ensure that the proper succession follows.

 

Yeah, we're really good at that.

[Walsingham]

Just a thought over my morning mango: we could place a naval 'danger zone' around N Korea. Where all NKorean military vessels are liable to unannounced attack.

 

Even if we didn't sink any of them the NKoreans would be obliged to make a deliberate show of putting to sea with a large portion of their fleet, with consequent strain on their support structure. Vessels would wear out, crews become tired. You'd materially damage their naval capability at a time when replacing/resupplying that capability is quite tricky. In exchange for a few words.

[Nihilus5078]

North Korea is a dumbass. @#$% commies!

Edited May 22, 2010 by Nihilus5078

[Masterfade]

North Korea is a dumbass. @#$% commies!

 

I'd say North Korea is just about the smartest country in the world. Without any real economy to speak of, armed with outdated WWII era military hardware and despised by just about every nation on this planet, it managed to make the world greatest powers (U.S, China, Japan, Russia) dance to its crazy tune. Had any other country in human history been able to pull off such feat?

[Orogun01]

North Korea is a dumbass. @#$% commies!

 

I'd say North Korea is just about the smartest country in the world. Without any real economy to speak of, armed with outdated WWII era military hardware and despised by just about every nation on this planet, it managed to make the world greatest powers (U.S, China, Japan, Russia) dance to its crazy tune. Had any other country in human history been able to pull off such feat?

Cuban missile crisis.

[Rostere]

North Korea is a dumbass. @#$% commies!

 

I'd say North Korea is just about the smartest country in the world. Without any real economy to speak of, armed with outdated WWII era military hardware and despised by just about every nation on this planet, it managed to make the world greatest powers (U.S, China, Japan, Russia) dance to its crazy tune. Had any other country in human history been able to pull off such feat?

Cuban missile crisis.

 

Oh come on. That wasn't caused by Cuba, that was caused by the Soviet Union. Also, that only involved the USA on the opposing side.

 

It's funny, North Korea's largest threat to its neighbours is its own collapse, causing mass starvation of its own population and a tidal wave of refugees in adjacent countries.

[lord of flies]

Okay, let's get back on this:

 

Military force is not the answer to North Korea. Military force is probably the exact opposite of the answer to North Korea. This is only partly because of the massive, massive, massive, massive, massive casualties a Second Korean War would cause.

 

B.R. Myers gave a great talk about the exact functioning of the North Korean state and its propaganda. To put it simply, North Korea can't not lash out at the United States: that is the center of its legitimacy. It can't stop being militaristic: that is the center of its legitimacy. The whole justification of North Korea is that it is not a United States puppet.

[Oblarg]

Okay, let's get back on this:

 

Military force is not the answer to North Korea. Military force is probably the exact opposite of the answer to North Korea. This is only partly because of the massive, massive, massive, massive, massive casualties a Second Korean War would cause.

 

B.R. Myers gave a great talk about the exact functioning of the North Korean state and its propaganda. To put it simply, North Korea can't not lash out at the United States: that is the center of its legitimacy. It can't stop being militaristic: that is the center of its legitimacy. The whole justification of North Korea is that it is not a United States puppet.

 

That's all fine and dandy, but the current North Korean state is not serving the North Korean people particularly well. It doesn't help that their leader is bat**** insane, too. What would you propose?

[Humodour]

North Korea is a dumbass. @#$% commies!

 

I'd say North Korea is just about the smartest country in the world. Without any real economy to speak of, armed with outdated WWII era military hardware and despised by just about every nation on this planet, it managed to make the world greatest powers (U.S, China, Japan, Russia) dance to its crazy tune. Had any other country in human history been able to pull off such feat?

 

North Korea has essentially gone nowhere for 50 years. I wouldn't call that dancing to its every tune unless every tune it plays is "you guys advance while we **** ourselves over".

[Wrath of Dagon]

They haven't gone anywhere, but they succeeded in being a big threat to world peace. They lead us by the nose while we dance to their fiddle, and they accomplished keeping themselves in power this long, while continually humiliating the US.

[Humodour]

Here's an insightful article which points out that the biggest loser in this event is China, because they're stuck between a rock and a hrd place (SK and NK being either the rock or the hard place). This event galvanises and brings together a renewed SK, America, and Japan, while pitting them against a China unwilling to chastise NK. It weakens China's political image whilst strengthening the American sphere of influence.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...0052304212.html

[Humodour]

Here's an insightful article which points out that the biggest loser in this event is China, because they're stuck between a rock and a hrd place (SK and NK being either the rock or the hard place). This event galvanises and brings together a renewed SK, America, and Japan, while pitting them against a China unwilling to chastise NK. It weakens China's political image whilst strengthening the American sphere of influence.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...0052304212.html

 

More on how badly the situation portrays China, from an Asian perspective (SK, Japan, Singapore, Indonesia): http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2920816

 

Basically, it looks like China was banking on SK not being able to prove any NK involvement. Oops. Totalitarian idiots.

 

And a Reuters article on the same issue: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE64J29T20100520

 

And CNN covers some of Lee's speech: http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/....ship/?hpt=Sbin

 

South Korean President Lee Myung-bak announced Monday his country is suspending trade with North Korea, closing its waters to the North's ships and adopting a newly aggressive military posture after the sinking of a South Korean warship.

 

"We have always tolerated North Korea's brutality, time and again," Lee said. "We did so because we have always had a genuine longing for peace on the Korean Peninsula. But now things are different."

 

"North Korea will pay a price corresponding to its provocative acts," he said, according to an English translation of the speech provided by Lee's office. "I will continue to take stern measures to hold the North accountable."

 

[...]

 

In the nationally televised speech Monday morning, Lee said his country was adopting a posture of "proactive deterrence" toward the North, announcing that "combat capabilities will be reinforced drastically" and that he will focus on improving national security readiness and military discipline.

 

"If our territorial waters, airspace or territory are violated, we will immediately exercise our right of self-defense," Lee said.

 

Addressing the alleged attack, Lee said, "Once again, North Korea violently shattered our peace. The sinking of the Cheonan constitutes a military provocation against the Republic of Korea by North Korea."

 

Lee also admonished his own people, saying that until the attack " we had been forgetting the reality that the nation faces the most belligerent regime in the world."

Edited May 24, 2010 by Krezack

[Orogun01]

Depending on the results of the U.N meeting and whether Kim Jong took his pills that day, we may have a peaceful solution that won't trigger war. Although I feel that we are just postponing the inevitable.

[Masterfade]

To be fair, South Korea's decision to only include first world nations in the investigation ain't making it easier for for China to accept the findings.

 

It has been most puzzling to me how the South came up with the list of "U.S., Australia, U.K. and Sweden". It will be much harder to ignore the report if, say, South Africa and Brazil were involved.

[Walsingham]

Actually i'd have thought it would make sense to include nations which don't already accept that N Korea are bonkers, and nations which we need to distance from Chinese domination. Brazil would be an excellent start. As would a bunch of African nations. The Swedes make sense given their common role as arbitrators.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Except for the little problem that they probably have no expertise in this whatsoever. And China does accept the finding, they'll just never say so publicly. In fact I'm sure China knows exactly what happened, no way is NK not completely infiltrated by Chinese spies, just like the US.

 

Edit: Funny how Krezack's link confirms what I was saying earlier:

China reacted slowly to the Cheonan's sinking, waiting almost a month before offering South Korea condolences. Then it feted North Korean leader Kim Jong Il in early May, apparently offering him another large package of aid, Asian diplomats said. China's attitude has enraged South Korean officials.

 

While the incident is pushing officials in South Korea, Japan and the United States to contain North Korea and even prepare for a future without a North Korean state, Green said, China appears intent on redoubling its efforts to ensure North Korea's stability.

 

"The Chinese are very negative about the prospect of a democratic, united Korea on their border," Green said. "They want to keep North Korea alive."

Edited May 24, 2010 by Wrath of Dagon

[Humodour]

Actually, that link goes on to state that China supports NK because it fears a flood of refugees, Dagon.

[Walsingham]

LOL so even the Chinese recognise that their true commie dingbat brethren are a lost cause.

 

I can't help feeling for the ordinary North Korean tho. They've not had much say in anything for years.

[Syraxis]

This whole thing smells like a rogue act within the KPA/KPN. Has this even been confirmed/debunked?

Edited May 24, 2010 by Syraxis

[Volourn]

This attack just proves how ill fate of a leader the NK madman is. Exactly what did NK get out of murdering the 46 people? Nothing. Any smart dicator knows that wanton random killing gives you nothing... unless you actually get pleasure out of it. Sicko.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Actually, that link goes on to state that China supports NK because it fears a flood of refugees, Dagon.

I said that it's for both of those reasons.

[ramza]

Also, exactly what lies about Vietnam are you referring too? T

 

I am talking about the Tonkin Gulf Lie: according to the official Washington version of the facts, some vietnamese vessels torpedoed two american destroyers, the USS Maddox (DD-731) and the USS C. Turner Joy, which required immediate intervention by the US army. Half a century later, the National Security Agency declassified some archives that proved it was a lie and a pretext to start a war.

 

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2261

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_Incident

 

It's funny that the US has caused more wars than any other country since WW2. Let me laugh about the honourable ideals of bringing democracy to the unluckier countries. Let me tell you this, some countries are just not ready for democracy and will crumble to dust without some kind of dictarorship. Just take the example of Iraq, I can bet that a civil war will start when the americans will leave. In a sense, they were better off with ol' Saddam...