Mexifornia

[Guard Dog]

The act itself was pretty inconsequential, but the symoblisim was huge. And it was noticed in a big way.

[Guard Dog]

Just a thought, but if an American kid, wearing a shirt with and American flag, to and American school, on American soil can not be expected to be safe then we are getting real close to civil war.

[Amentep]

Just a thought, but if an American kid, wearing a shirt with and American flag, to and American school, on American soil can not be expected to be safe then we are getting real close to civil war.

 

Isn't that what Killian was saying a few months ago...?

[Oner]

The boys really had no choice,

Uh-huh

 

and went home to avoid suspension.

Yeah, I bet they cried themselves to sleep that they couldn't be at school.

[Guard Dog]

Just a thought, but if an American kid, wearing a shirt with and American flag, to and American school, on American soil can not be expected to be safe then we are getting real close to civil war.

 

Isn't that what Killian was saying a few months ago...?

No, he thinks red states and blue states are going to fight. That will never happen because there is no such thing. This situation is a little more dangerous.

[Meshugger]

I have a hard time understanding this, but on the other hand, i do not live in a multi-cult-land either.

[Amentep]

Ah, yeah. I remember now. Thanks.

 

I kinda agree with Gromnir on this, myself. While there should be theoretically no problem with wearing the American flag, I think the realities of the situation have to be recognized and there were better and subtler approaches to defusing the potential problems in the situation - particularly given that there are plenty of teen boys and girls who are just one excuse away from a fight anyhow.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Just a thought, but if an American kid, wearing a shirt with and American flag, to and American school, on American soil can not be expected to be safe then we are getting real close to civil war.

 

I know one thing for certain.

 

The soviet union, in its brief existence ignored the existing religious desires and deep set nationalistic feelings of the people. So it was dismantled.

 

Political correctness and modern "liberalism" are exactly the same, bluntly favoring one group of people/ideas over others, most often various types of minorities against the existing feelings of the majority.

 

Also, it has practically been proven in social theory that repressed feelings have a way of coming back and exploding in everyone's face. Case study: post WWI germany and the rise of Nazism. Thus, it would be no surprise if indeed some sort of revolt against this policy erupted in the US.

[Walsingham]

I'm kind of in line with Amentep. I mean for all we know the kids themselves may have been aggressive **** looking for a fight. I don't know how it works in the US, but our right wing have practically adopted the flag as their private hate symbol. Evil ****ing bastards.

[RPGmasterBoo]

I'm kind of in line with Amentep. I mean for all we know the kids themselves may have been aggressive **** looking for a fight. I don't know how it works in the US, but our right wing have practically adopted the flag as their private hate symbol. Evil ****ing bastards.

 

Yeah they were probably redneck bastards who forgot their KKK hoods at home. Burn them on a stake! Show the world the righteous, lawful good fury of the liberal lynch mob!

 

Seriously Walsingham, you're not showing a very different type of reasoning by judging people on what you think was in their heads.

[Gromnir]

@Gromnir: they were being jerks for wearing their flag on another minority's holiday? I'm sorry that doesn't compute. Perhaps in the US such things are related, from where I am standing there is no connection whatsoever. As I understand it there are plenty of US flags on ST Patrick's day, and the Irish don't complain.

 

 

am tempted to use the eye-roll gif. so, you think it were pure coincidence that the group o' kids wore clothes bearing American flags on cinco de mayo... and these kids were no doubt complete surprised at the negative reaction such garb engendered in their peers.

 

okie dokie.

 

look, as we noted already, the hispanic kids shoulda' ignored. the jerky kids with the American flags were doing to be contrary, but that not mean that the hispanic kids should necessarily rise to take the bait. if you is doing to be contrary, is hard to act surprised and innocent when your target demo gets riled, no? is there anything objective wrong with wearing an American flag tee-shirt on cinco de mayo. heck no...

 

hey, you know what is even More unfair? if a handful o' hispanic kids had worn clothes with the American flags emblazoned one 'em there might not have been any problem at all.

 

the Irish example ain't really applicable is it? as you already noted, "the Irish don't complain." wear an American tee-shirt in Boston on St Paddy's day in 2010 and it is unlikely to bother anyone. 'course what if the political climate 'tween the U.S. and Irish immigrants were different... what if tensions 'tween US govt. and Irish immigrants were high and certain States were enacting legislation targeted directly at Irish immigrants? what if it we had a flashback to the 1800's, and even American born Irish folks were feeling (and sometimes treated) like second class citizens? compare to Irish doesn't work, because as you already noted, the Irish folks wouldn't be likely to get mad if boo and his pals wore American flags on St. Paddy's Day. agree or disagree with hispanic students being Justified in their displeasure at seeing a group o' kids wearing American flags on cinco de mayo? that is a different query.

 

if you does to because you is hopeful that target group A gets cheesed, and your target goes ahead and gets angry...

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Hurlshort]

More background on this school district -

 

A few years back they lost a major lawsuit over gay and lesbian rights. A group of students sued them over their treatment by students and staff members.

[Guard Dog]

@Gromnir: they were being jerks for wearing their flag on another minority's holiday? I'm sorry that doesn't compute. Perhaps in the US such things are related, from where I am standing there is no connection whatsoever. As I understand it there are plenty of US flags on ST Patrick's day, and the Irish don't complain.

 

 

am tempted to use the eye-roll gif. so, you think it were pure coincidence that the group o' kids wore clothes bearing American flags on cinco de mayo... and these kids were no doubt complete surprised at the negative reaction such garb engendered in their peers.

 

okie dokie.

 

look, as we noted already, the hispanic kids shoulda' ignored. the jerky kids with the American flags were doing to be contrary, but that not mean that the hispanic kids should necessarily rise to take the bait. if you is doing to be contrary, is hard to act surprised and innocent when your target demo gets riled, no? is there anything objective wrong with wearing an American flag tee-shirt on cinco de mayo. heck no...

 

hey, you know what is even More unfair? if a handful o' hispanic kids had worn clothes with the American flags emblazoned one 'em there might not have been any problem at all.

 

the Irish example ain't really applicable is it? as you already noted, "the Irish don't complain." wear an American tee-shirt in Boston on St Paddy's day in 2010 and it is unlikely to bother anyone. 'course what if the political climate 'tween the U.S. and Irish immigrants were different... what if tensions 'tween US govt. and Irish immigrants were high and certain States were enacting legislation targeted directly at Irish immigrants? what if it we had a flashback to the 1800's, and even American born Irish folks were feeling (and sometimes treated) like second class citizens? compare to Irish doesn't work, because as you already noted, the Irish folks wouldn't be likely to get mad if boo and his pals wore American flags on St. Paddy's Day. agree or disagree with hispanic students being Justified in their displeasure at seeing a group o' kids wearing American flags on cinco de mayo? that is a different query.

 

if you does to because you is hopeful that target group A gets cheesed, and your target goes ahead and gets angry...

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I dunno Grmonir, maybe what those kids did was right an necassary. Tensions are rising not falling, ignoring it has done no good. Perhaps confrontation is exactly what is needed now. It is probably inevitable anyway and the longer it is in coming the more violent it is like to be. If we get it over with now perhaps it can be done peacefully.The Irish example really does not work because they were here LEGALLY, and the current immigation contorversy is what to do about ILLEGAL immigrants (despite the attempts of some to obfuscate by blurring the lines between the two). Also, America of 2010 would not tolerate the treatment of another people the way the did the Irish in the late 1800s. Latinos are not treated that way at all.

Edited May 7, 2010 by Guard Dog

[RPGmasterBoo]

if you does to because you is hopeful that target group A gets cheesed, and your target goes ahead and gets angry...

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

So you say they were making a statement. Even if they were, was it not fully within the bounds of the law, and apart from the bandannas within the rules of the school?

If it was, there is no justification whatsoever for this kind of treatment.

 

Secondly, you cannot forbid people from wearing the flag of their country wherever and whenever they wish within its borders. To have to resort to doing so is deeply wrong at the very least from a moral perspective.

I don't have a single t-shirt with my country's flag on it, but I'd find it deeply offensive for someone to prohibit my wearing such clothes.

 

Besides I feel that a clear hierarchy benefits overall stability. When I was living as a part of a white minority in a predominantly black country, I knew my place - what I could, what I couldn't do and what I mustn't do. The fact of the matter is this: the native population takes precedence. Its perfectly natural, regardless of the formal equality under the law. What is not natural is hispanic kids being offended at the flag of the country they're living in and american kids being chastised for wearing it. That sort of entitlement will breed resentment in both camps and the end result is not a democratic utopia but a society filled to the brim with mutual hatred. On the other hand, Botswana (where I lived) suffers from no racial issues precisely because there's an unwritten law on how everyone must behave.

 

Overall, I blame the liberals.

[Monte Carlo]

Look on the bright side, America's southern border flanks a rapidly-failing narco-state.

[213374U]

If an immigrant has a problem with the national and cultural symbols of the place he's migrated to being prominently displayed everywhere, perhaps he should have chosen a different place to go to.

 

The kids were being provocative jerks, they were fishing for a fight, etc... by wearing their country's flag on their shirts. Yeah, sorry but no matter how I look at it, I can't see how that can reasonably be interpreted as a provocation, unless Mexican-Americans somehow expect Americans to change their attitudes to accomodate their sensibilities (which they probably do). It's not like they were burning Mexican flags and playing Yankee Doodle in their 2000-Watt car subwoofers to crash that 5 de Mayo celeb (what's to celebrate about yet another French defeat, anyway?). We discussed this in another thread already -- offense is subjective, and there's no minimum conduct standards that can be agreed upon to guarantee that nobody will be offended. It's a nice slippery slope to "consider context" and "let it slide". If that's how you think, maybe you should practice your Spanish more, because soon you'll be getting the evil eye for speaking in another language... or worse.

 

That said, the principal probably took the easy and safe route and dealt with the less numerous and more easily manageable group instead of trying to make a political statement and get involved in a racially-grounded civic crusade... you only get to do that safely on internet message boards.

[Wrath of Dagon]

One thing I can tell you for sure is that the way it has been handled is going to inspire racial hatred, not solve it. If the kids that were wearing flags didn't like latinos before, now they're going to hate them.

Nah, in the US we've been trained to like being spat upon.

[Gromnir]

1) am not arguing that the hispanic reaction were justified

 

am not even gonna touch the justification issue, 'cause that is a whole different question. regardless of whether or not the hispanic student reaction were justified, am thinking it is obvious that the kids wearing American flag garb were trying to agitate their hispanic peers. jerks.

 

2) you is over-simplifying the immigration issue

 

is not simply 'bout illegal immigration, but again, that ain't really the issue in the present context. legitimacy o' hispanic anger got 0 to do with whether or not these kids was being jerks.

 

3) "I dunno Grmonir, maybe what those kids did was right an necassary." so, they were kinda like modern day Rosa Parks?

 

*chuckle*

 

am thinking you is giving far too much credit to these kids. as we already stated, we not think there is anything objective wrong with wearing an American flag tee shirt on cinco de mayo. by the same token, if Gromnir were an administrator at that school, and we genuinely were concerned that violence might occur as a result o' the jerk-squads"patriotism," we woulda' done something to protect our students... all of our students. you think that it were necessary to start trouble at a school? why?

 

keep in mind that we is talking 'bout kids. you really think it were necessary and appropriate to fight this kinda battle at a school? is not as if we is talking 'bout a political rally being held in a park somewhere... is a school, with kids in their teens. expecting the hispanic kids or the jerky kids to act like adults is unfair. demanding that these kids understand the Big Picture is also unfair.

 

we got in more than a few fights in high school. in point o' fact, we got in lots o' fights. we attended an inner-city school in Chicago. more than half the fights we got involved in were race related... 'cause we dressed white and talked white at a school that were near all black. (the irony being that we got in fights when we were in south dakota and north dakota 'cause we were native American.) you know how many fights we has been involved in since we graduated high school (not counting breaking up fights when we worked at juvenile hall)? none. kids fight. sometimes kids feels like they must fight. legally and morally we expect adults to know better, and to find civilized ways o' resolving problems... but it is different with kids. we tell kids that violence ain't necessary, but if a high school student (particularly at some schools) allows himself to get punk'd... or if he "turns the other cheek" and gets labeled as a b!tch, then his life for as long as he is in school is probable gonna be a nightmare.

 

maybe you thinks that the jerky kids were justified. maybe you thinks that what they did were "right." fine. however, you ain't gonna convince us that what they did was necessary.

 

"So you say they were making a statement. Even if they were, was it not fully within the bounds of the law, and apart from the bandannas within the rules of the school?"

 

clearly you is not listening. please review. you took issue with us labeling the pint-sized agitators as jerks. we responded by noting that we didn't see anything objective wrong with wearing American flag tees on cinco de mayo, but the kids were trying to agitate. try to agitate, particularly on a school campus where you know that the administration or teachers is gonna have to step in and defend you if a fight does break out is not only jerky, but possibly a chicken **** move as well.

 

you know, perhaps you should get into law. some o' our peers also has a hard time distinguishing between what is legal and what is appropriate or moral or jerky. there is all kinds o' things that Gromnir can do that is legal that any reasonable person would still recognize as being the actions of a jerk.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited May 7, 2010 by Gorth
Language

[Amentep]

if you does to because you is hopeful that target group A gets cheesed, and your target goes ahead and gets angry...

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

So you say they were making a statement. Even if they were, was it not fully within the bounds of the law, and apart from the bandannas within the rules of the school?

If it was, there is no justification whatsoever for this kind of treatment.

 

Arguably any non-disruptive clothing can be asked to be removed in a school setting if its deemed to be disruptive. This can be truely offensive shirts, shirts with bands that the school feel is disruptive or even a shirt with Sponge Bob Squarepants if there is a situation created deemed disruptive.

 

Secondly, you cannot forbid people from wearing the flag of their country wherever and whenever they wish within its borders. To have to resort to doing so is deeply wrong at the very least from a moral perspective.

I don't have a single t-shirt with my country's flag on it, but I'd find it deeply offensive for someone to prohibit my wearing such clothes.

 

Arguably a flag on a T-Shirt doesn't actually fit the rules for proper display of the US flag anyhow (although there's no specific law against it besides the Flag Code suggesting that its inappropriate to use the flag in such a way).

[213374U]

am thinking you is giving far too much credit to these kids. as we already stated, we not think there is anything objective wrong with wearing an American flag tee shirt on cinco de mayo. by the same token, if Gromnir were an administrator at that school, and we genuinely were concerned that violence might occur as a result o' the jerk-squads"patriotism," we woulda' done something to protect our students... all of our students. you think that it were necessary to start trouble at a school? why?

So you figure it's impossible to teach these kids (both groups) that these antics are unacceptable and they shouldn't fight over them (even if they end up doing it anyway), or just not worth it?

 

Not saying that confrontation is desirable, but if you don't teach people to respect each other and not be pricks when they are young, can you expect them to behave differently when they grow up? This isn't just fighting over a snarky remark that makes hormones take over, racial issues carry over to adulthood.

Edited May 7, 2010 by 213374U

[Guard Dog]

Everything Gromnir said

No I would not rank them in the same category as Rosa Parks, but I would not dismiss the analogy all together either.

 

But you are right, the cause may be right but the champions and forum is wrong.

 

But this whole stupid mess could also have been avoided by the school not celebrated a faux "holiday" concoted entirely to sell beer and tequila yhay passes without notice in the very country it applies to.

[RPGmasterBoo]

clearly you is not listening. please review. you took issue with us labeling the pint-sized agitators as jerks. we responded by noting that we didn't see anything objective wrong with wearing American flag tees on cinco de mayo, but the kids were trying to agitate. try to agitate, particularly on a school campus where you know that the administration or teachers is gonna have to step in and defend you if a fight does break out is not only jerky, but possibly a chicken **** move as well.

HA! Good Fun!

 

Alright. Explain please why wearing the US flag on cinco de mayo is agitation?

Would wearing a Serbian flag be agitation? I assume not. Then the problem is with something the US flag represents? If you're celebrating being Mexican, how is it offensive that someone needs to point out that they're American? You could perhaps call it unnecessary, but certainly not offensive. The issues are unrelated.

 

Is the presumed message: "we're more American than you?"? But how is that offensive when you're expressing pride at being Mexican? The celebration is over a Mexican/French conflict, the US doesn't even figure into the equation.

 

What's in your opinion the agitation here?

 

@Amentep:

1. I agree. Regardless, US flags in the US can't or shouldn't be deemed disruptive.

2. You're probably right but you know full well that that's a moot point.

Edited May 7, 2010 by Gorth
Just for consistency

[Hurlshort]

But this whole stupid mess could also have been avoided by the school not celebrated a faux "holiday" concoted entirely to sell beer and tequila yhay passes without notice in the very country it applies to.

 

It's a little late for that, Cinco De Mayo has inexplicably turned into a big deal. There really isn't any going back. However it can be turned into a positive event, celebrating Mexican culture and heritage, which is what most schools do. Folklorico dancing, Mariachi music, and churros are not a bad thing for a school to celebrate with.

 

People keep bringing up St. Patrick's Day and Ireland as a comparison. I don't fully like that because we don't share a gigantic border with Ireland so the immigration was rather minimal in comparison. But lets be realistic here, this is about discrimination, which both Irish Americans and Mexican Americans have faced. These 5 kids were clearly interested in disrespecting Cinco de Mayo and the Mexican heritage of their classmates. There is nothing patriotic about their act, it's a punk move by punk kids. Given that their parents endorse their behavior, it is clear they have been raised to not respect other cultures. There is nothing redeeming about their actions.

[Volourn]

This is ridiculous. Labeling Amerikan kids wearing an Amerikan flag in Amerika has evil or 'punks' or racist is just plain sick and twisted. The people who are bigoted are the ones who loathe the US so much that they punish and slur anyone who dares to be proud of their country.

 

It's just wrong on so many levels. These kids did aboslutely nothing wrong.

 

Provoking? That's like accusing someone of being 'guilty' of, proving' for weasring 'i love jews' in front of nazis or muslim extremists. LMAO Or wearing a Mexican flag t shirt to a place in Mexicao that is popular to foreigners. It does not make sense.

[Thorton_AP]

Besides I feel that a clear hierarchy benefits overall stability.

 

Isn't that an important tenant of fascism?