Lets talk about Greece

[Monte Carlo]

As far as the anarchists go, they are just random groups of people that merge with the crowd and seize any opportunity they can to burn cars and destroy buildings. They have no ideology (fighting capitalism for example) as everything they destroy usually belong to poor fellows that don't earn that much. This is a problem specific to Greece and that has existed for at least 2 decades now.

 

Er, since 1944. Greek Communism was particularly rabid as the ideology spread like typhus over the region towards the end of WW2. The anarchists you describe are it's direct descendents, Greece has been ruled by shadowy cabals with links to political extremists ever since. The ships-n-commodities gazillionaire class withdrew from Greek politics in the 1950's, which is why most of them are domicilied abroad.

[ramza]

Yes, we do have some rabid communists but the anarchists are a different group. They don't claim anything at all. By just reading their messages on the walls, all they want is kill cops and destroy the Government (no matter if it's liberal or socialist).

[Walsingham]

Indeed. What I particularly love is the way mass murder attains a spurious glow of legitimacy if you say you only want to murder rich people.

[Monte Carlo]

Yes, we do have some rabid communists but the anarchists are a different group. They don't claim anything at all. By just reading their messages on the walls, all they want is kill cops and destroy the Government (no matter if it's liberal or socialist).

 

You miss my point, the anarchists are the bastard offspring of the Commies, who in turn had been crushed by reactionaries.

[Wrath of Dagon]

The average Greek person of my parents' and grandparents' generations is very ignorant and easy to manipulate. Many have not studied beyond middle school and have not a clue about politics. One striking example I once read in the newspaper is that 55% of the Greeks refuse to believe Darwin's theory of evolution

No different from the US.

[Flouride]

Stop making stuff up. I am specialized in EU matters and never heard or read anything of the sort. Why would Greece even do that in the first place? Those two countries do not even have any litigation between them...

 

The news was first reported in Finland back in 1994 and now again just few days ago. Your representative in the negotiations all most single handedly drove our negotiators away with his 0 skill negotiating skills. He made ridicilous demands, would try to boss/dominate our negotiators and not to mention tell us what a sad bunch of a** lickers we are, soviet a** that is. Can't remember whether he was drinking whiskey during the 2 day negoatiations as well.

Anyways the German representative managed to contain him to some degree and the negotiations could be finished.

But I guess I'm just making stuff up...

[Walsingham]

Stop making stuff up. I am specialized in EU matters and never heard or read anything of the sort. Why would Greece even do that in the first place? Those two countries do not even have any litigation between them...

 

The news was first reported in Finland back in 1994 and now again just few days ago. Your representative in the negotiations all most single handedly drove our negotiators away with his 0 skill negotiating skills. He made ridicilous demands, would try to boss/dominate our negotiators and not to mention tell us what a sad bunch of a** lickers we are, soviet a** that is. Can't remember whether he was drinking whiskey during the 2 day negoatiations as well.

Anyways the German representative managed to contain him to some degree and the negotiations could be finished.

But I guess I'm just making stuff up...

 

It would be helpful if you provided links to the relevant stories.

[Flouride]

It would be helpful if you provided links to the relevant stories.

 

Yes, because obviously you all can understand finnish perfectly?

[Humodour]

It would be helpful if you provided links to the relevant stories.

 

Yes, because obviously you all can understand finnish perfectly?

 

Oh snap.

 

But then again...

 

In Google Translate we trust.

[Enoch]

1994 is also a little early for there to be much of the then-current news reportage freely availalbe on teh internets. When you get to the period before news services started posting everything online as a matter of course, most of the 'archives' are usually behind paywalls or only available through 3rd party services like Nexis.

[cronicler]

One ironic part about Greece's problems is Turkiye.

 

From the beginning, we both have been handing a lot of cash to countries like Germany for Paper Tigers. This resulted in having newest generation (locally upgraded export models) tanks and other heavy pieces sitting gathering dust (and eating budget) while our both armies need good mountain infantry and its supports for more realistic and dangerous areas.

 

We both don't trust each other because we know that the moment someone falters, the other will strangle him using the control of Aegean sea. If we both had decent governments, than the issue could have been partially resolved long ago by creating a joint operation to police the region (which would save a lot of cash and headaches)

 

Since our politicians are incapable of taking a longer view than next election (and it is such a patriotic political ploy to use the use the hate instead of more mature choices) I don't have the slightest hope of seeing the general hostility resolved.

 

*On a related note, I would advise to take a grain of salt with each news of crackpot conspiracies coming from our side. We are in the middle of a bloodless civil war right now and if things go as bad as they have been lately, You might start to actively need the protection generated those paper tigers in 5 or so years.

[ramza]

One ironic part about Greece's problems is Turkiye.

 

From the beginning, we both have been handing a lot of cash to countries like Germany for Paper Tigers. This resulted in having newest generation (locally upgraded export models) tanks and other heavy pieces sitting gathering dust (and eating budget) while our both armies need good mountain infantry and its supports for more realistic and dangerous areas.

 

We both don't trust each other because we know that the moment someone falters, the other will strangle him using the control of Aegean sea. If we both had decent governments, than the issue could have been partially resolved long ago by creating a joint operation to police the region (which would save a lot of cash and headaches)

 

Since our politicians are incapable of taking a longer view than next election (and it is such a patriotic political ploy to use the use the hate instead of more mature choices) I don't have the slightest hope of seeing the general hostility resolved.

 

*On a related note, I would advise to take a grain of salt with each news of crackpot conspiracies coming from our side. We are in the middle of a bloodless civil war right now and if things go as bad as they have been lately, You might start to actively need the protection generated those paper tigers in 5 or so years.

 

Are you referring to this?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405...0905495614.html

 

I had no idea the situation was so tense in Turkey. Anyway, I just wish we could disband our armies and leave peacefully... sigh...

[Wrath of Dagon]

You mean live peacefully, you can always leave peacefully.

[Humodour]

The interesting thing is that this basically means Greece will go into depression if you think about it. Ouch.

[ramza]

Ooops, yeah I mean "live" and not "leave". That's what you get for posting at 1 a.m.

 

According to official calculations, the basic salary will be 380 euros with the new austerity measures (it was 600 euros before). What the hell did I spend 6 years studying? I don't have any other choice than to emigrate... Moreover, they don't tackle the main problem: the rich guys are still avoiding paying their taxes. They could also halve our defense expenditure, now that would make a difference.

[Walsingham]

It would be helpful if you provided links to the relevant stories.

 

Yes, because obviously you all can understand finnish perfectly?

 

No. But there are people who can who I trust a lot more than you, sonny.

[Flouride]

It would be helpful if you provided links to the relevant stories.

 

Yes, because obviously you all can understand finnish perfectly?

 

No. But there are people who can who I trust a lot more than you, sonny.

 

Yes, obviously i'm just making stuff up.

 

http://www.iltasanomat.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/....asp?id=2126938

 

Sadly it's impossible to find the newspaper articles from 1994.

[ramza]

Hahahaha! I never suspected that Pangalos was involved. I personally confirm that this guy is nuts but should not be taken seriously. He got fired a few years later by the way as he had absolutely no sense of diplomacy and was doing more harm than good to our country. Now, assuming that he really did behave that way, it was not Greece's official position to prevent Finland from joining the EU. I don't know why the hell he would do such a thing but bear in mind he is diabetic and this may influence his behavior. What I fail to understand is why they nominated him as vice-president of the new socialist Government (even though it's mor a symbolic position as he doesn't have any real power). Even now, with the debt crisis, he makes the situation worse whenever he intervenes in the media.

 

So, if what happened is true, I apologize for his behavior as we have nothing against Finland.

 

Here's some extra info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodoros_Pangalos

Edited May 7, 2010 by ramza

[Magister Lajciak]

Ooops, yeah I mean "live" and not "leave". That's what you get for posting at 1 a.m.

 

According to official calculations, the basic salary will be 380 euros with the new austerity measures (it was 600 euros before). What the hell did I spend 6 years studying? I don't have any other choice than to emigrate... Moreover, they don't tackle the main problem: the rich guys are still avoiding paying their taxes. They could also halve our defense expenditure, now that would make a difference.

 

Don't despair ramza! Greek people are still better off than in many of the new EU members. The average (mean) salary in Greece is approximately 1900 euros (~$2500) per month, which is not bad compared to Slovakia's approximately 750 euros (~$1000) (and yes, the costs of living in Slovakia are comparable these days). The minimum wage (which is probably what you meant by the basic wage) is 862.82 euros (~$1120) in Greece and 307.70 euros (~$400) in Slovakia. All of these figures (both for Greece and for Slovakia) are before the inclusion of taxes, social security contributions, health insurance contributions and so on, so net minimum wage in Greece might indeed be the 600 euros you mentioned and might decline to 380 euros as you describe. As I said, however, do not despair - there are other countries in the Eurozone that are much worse in terms of living standards even without a debt crisis (though we are heading there too unless we start cutting the deficit relatively soon) [i think Slovakia has the lowest wages in the Eurozone, but there are much poorer ones still in the EU as a whole]. Furthermore, the minimum wage, although its decline will impact the country socially, is irrelevant for you personally. As a smart, university-educated individual, you will surely get a much better wage than that - I would expect your starting wage to be similar to the mean wage (1900 euros per month), which is respectable. Of course, the current crisis might suppress that somewhat, the government cannot simply decrease it, as unlike the minimum wage it is not statutary.

 

(Note: All figures in this post are from Eurostat, though sometimes some calculation was involved rendering them approximate.)

 

I can sympathize with your frustration that the politicians are getting off scott-free and are not cutting their own wages. That is a moral issue, but it has no chance of solving Greece's problems, as their salaries as MPs/ministers make up such a tiny fraction of the overall spending. That said, of course, it would be moral to cut back on those too if the whole country has to cut back.

 

From what I have read, the Greek government is attempting to fight tax evasion. Here is an interesting article on the matter: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/eu.../02evasion.html

 

It is difficult to say how successful the tax collection efforts will be, as past attempts have not yielded much success, but this time the attempt seems to be more earnest and the crisis may also change things and focus attention on the problem. I guess we will see.

[ramza]

Don't despair ramza! Greek people are still better off than in many of the new EU members. The average (mean) salary in Greece is approximately 1900 euros (~$2500) per month, which is not bad compared to Slovakia's approximately 750 euros (~$1000) (and yes, the costs of living in Slovakia are comparable these days). The minimum wage (which is probably what you meant by the basic wage) is 862.82 euros (~$1120) in Greece and 307.70 euros (~$400) in Slovakia. All of these figures (both for Greece and for Slovakia) are before the inclusion of taxes, social security contributions, health insurance contributions and so on, so net minimum wage in Greece might indeed be the 600 euros you mentioned and might decline to 380 euros as you describe. As I said, however, do not despair - there are other countries in the Eurozone that are much worse in terms of living standards even without a debt crisis (though we are heading there too unless we start cutting the deficit relatively soon) [i think Slovakia has the lowest wages in the Eurozone, but there are much poorer ones still in the EU as a whole].

 

Sorry but I disagree with these numbers:

 

- The best salary you could hope for, after 20 years of work, was 1500 euros (not including taxes). At best, if you were a judge or a director, you could have hoped for 2000 euros. The average salary (whether you start working or are in the middle of your career) is between 900 and 1200 euros (not including taxes again). I made some research and the minimum wage was 750 euros just before the austerity measures. Now, reduce this by 20-50 % and you can see how low the wages are. Considering that the cost of life in Greece is similar (if not more expensive, because we import many of the goods we are consuming) to that of western European countries, it is irrelevant if the wages still remain higher than in Slovakia or any other central or eastern European country. I don't think anyone can live decently with 400 euros per month in Paris, London or Amsterdam... Eurostat does not reflect the real situation with its numbers.

 

Furthermore, the minimum wage, although its decline will impact the country socially, is irrelevant for you personally. As a smart, university-educated individual, you will surely get a much better wage than that - I would expect your starting wage to be similar to the mean wage (1900 euros per month), which is respectable. Of course, the current crisis might suppress that somewhat, the government cannot simply decrease it, as unlike the minimum wage it is not statutary.

 

Thanks for the kind words but this is unfortunately not the case. No matter if you are educated or not, you get the same salary. Employers tend to exploit the fact that there is a high unemployment rate amongst young adults and give them the lowest salary they can. For example, even with 2 LLMs, all I can hope for is 1000 euros (not including taxes) at best. One of my friends for example, who studied at the same university as me, had more work experience than me and even has 3 LLMs, is currently paid 900 euros in a law firm. The problem with my country is that nothing is done to encourage people to study, like giving them some incentives such as a better salary. It is a proven fact that most people that study abroad never come back as there is simply no recognition for the know-how you have learned. As soon as I am done with my current project, I am seriously considering getting the hell out of here.

 

I can sympathize with your frustration that the politicians are getting off scott-free and are not cutting their own wages. That is a moral issue, but it has no chance of solving Greece's problems, as their salaries as MPs/ministers make up such a tiny fraction of the overall spending. That said, of course, it would be moral to cut back on those too if the whole country has to cut back.

 

The thing is that the austerity measures would have been more easily accepted if everyone accepted to make some sacrifices. Yet, it's always the same people who pay for the politician's mistakes. I can tell you everyone is really pissed off at the moment and politicians don't dare go out in public anymore as they get insulted or get thrown things at them.

 

It is difficult to say how successful the tax collection efforts will be, as past attempts have not yielded much success, but this time the attempt seems to be more earnest and the crisis may also change things and focus attention on the problem. I guess we will see.

 

A lot is being said but nothing is being done. They only catch the small tax evaders while the really big ones still wander free. The small ones may have hidden a couple thousand euros while the big ones hide millions of euros. The worst thing is that everyone knows who they are as they have expensive cars, private jets, private boats, chalets in Switzerland, apartments in Paris and New York, luxurious villas here and there. One of my friends worked for a lawyer who earned 800 million euros per year and only declared 80 000 euros of income. The lawyer paid my friend only 600 euros per month and at some point even asked her to write in her tax declaration that her income was 3000 euros so that the guy could get a tax reduction, and she refused of course. He kept pressuring her so much that she had to resign in the end. I have heard similar stories about other famous lawyers and doctors.

[HoonDing]

It will not happen, but the EU should have the guts to admit it failed and retreat to its 1967 borders. And dump the Euro asap.

[Walsingham]

I'm still finding it funny that LOF is absent from this discussion, but trying to force Lenin into a discussion about high school student's tee-shirts. Go on, LoF. Get over to Greece!

[Magister Lajciak]

Don't despair ramza! Greek people are still better off than in many of the new EU members. The average (mean) salary in Greece is approximately 1900 euros (~$2500) per month, which is not bad compared to Slovakia's approximately 750 euros (~$1000) (and yes, the costs of living in Slovakia are comparable these days). The minimum wage (which is probably what you meant by the basic wage) is 862.82 euros (~$1120) in Greece and 307.70 euros (~$400) in Slovakia. All of these figures (both for Greece and for Slovakia) are before the inclusion of taxes, social security contributions, health insurance contributions and so on, so net minimum wage in Greece might indeed be the 600 euros you mentioned and might decline to 380 euros as you describe. As I said, however, do not despair - there are other countries in the Eurozone that are much worse in terms of living standards even without a debt crisis (though we are heading there too unless we start cutting the deficit relatively soon) [i think Slovakia has the lowest wages in the Eurozone, but there are much poorer ones still in the EU as a whole].

 

Sorry but I disagree with these numbers:

 

- The best salary you could hope for, after 20 years of work, was 1500 euros (not including taxes). At best, if you were a judge or a director, you could have hoped for 2000 euros. The average salary (whether you start working or are in the middle of your career) is between 900 and 1200 euros (not including taxes again). I made some research and the minimum wage was 750 euros just before the austerity measures. Now, reduce this by 20-50 % and you can see how low the wages are. Considering that the cost of life in Greece is similar (if not more expensive, because we import many of the goods we are consuming) to that of western European countries, it is irrelevant if the wages still remain higher than in Slovakia or any other central or eastern European country. I don't think anyone can live decently with 400 euros per month in Paris, London or Amsterdam... Eurostat does not reflect the real situation with its numbers.

 

Why doesn't Eurostat reflect the real situation? The minimum wage was directly from Eurostat statistics for the first half of 2010 (that is now, of course) and the (average) mean wage I had to calculate using some older Eurostat numbers (using Eurostat figures for the proportion of minimum to mean wage), as Eurostat did not have the latest figures, but figures from the Greek statistical office supposedly (as reported) show it to be even slightly higher at the moment: 2040 euros, which meshes pretty well with my calculation, considering I was using older figures.

 

I think it is just a misperception of what mean wage is that is causing this doubt. It also happens in Slovakia - people would swear the mean wage is much lower than 745 euros that the statistics show it to be, because they rely on their subjective experiences and have a generally pessimistic view of their standard of living. What's more, many people assume that the mean wage is the 'typical' wage, which is not the case - a mean wage can be higher than the typical wage, because the mean wage can be skewed upwards by a few high earners.

 

Furthermore, the minimum wage, although its decline will impact the country socially, is irrelevant for you personally. As a smart, university-educated individual, you will surely get a much better wage than that - I would expect your starting wage to be similar to the mean wage (1900 euros per month), which is respectable. Of course, the current crisis might suppress that somewhat, the government cannot simply decrease it, as unlike the minimum wage it is not statutary.

 

Thanks for the kind words but this is unfortunately not the case. No matter if you are educated or not, you get the same salary. Employers tend to exploit the fact that there is a high unemployment rate amongst young adults and give them the lowest salary they can. For example, even with 2 LLMs, all I can hope for is 1000 euros (not including taxes) at best. One of my friends for example, who studied at the same university as me, had more work experience than me and even has 3 LLMs, is currently paid 900 euros in a law firm. The problem with my country is that nothing is done to encourage people to study, like giving them some incentives such as a better salary. It is a proven fact that most people that study abroad never come back as there is simply no recognition for the know-how you have learned. As soon as I am done with my current project, I am seriously considering getting the hell out of here.

 

I think you are being too pessimistic about your earnigs potential. It is understandable considering the economic situation at the moment, but you shouldn't fall into despair. Even in a crisis specialists in your field will still be needed.

 

I can sympathize with your frustration that the politicians are getting off scott-free and are not cutting their own wages. That is a moral issue, but it has no chance of solving Greece's problems, as their salaries as MPs/ministers make up such a tiny fraction of the overall spending. That said, of course, it would be moral to cut back on those too if the whole country has to cut back.

 

The thing is that the austerity measures would have been more easily accepted if everyone accepted to make some sacrifices. Yet, it's always the same people who pay for the politician's mistakes. I can tell you everyone is really pissed off at the moment and politicians don't dare go out in public anymore as they get insulted or get thrown things at them.

 

Yes, I agree that in spite of the small contribution it would make to public finances, it would have been moral of the politicians to cut their own wages too, so as to make the cuts more palatable and create a feeling that everybody is sharing in the sacrifices. That said, the current wave of strikes has the potential to hurt Greece further if they are repeated regularly. The Greek economy derives substantial revenues from tourism and although Greece with its ancient civilization surely has a lot to offer in this regard, many tourists may decide not to risk coming if they feel that they might be left stranded by non-working transportation, etc. If this happens, Greek GDP will decline further and may well result in even deeper cuts.

 

It is difficult to say how successful the tax collection efforts will be, as past attempts have not yielded much success, but this time the attempt seems to be more earnest and the crisis may also change things and focus attention on the problem. I guess we will see.

 

A lot is being said but nothing is being done. They only catch the small tax evaders while the really big ones still wander free. The small ones may have hidden a couple thousand euros while the big ones hide millions of euros. The worst thing is that everyone knows who they are as they have expensive cars, private jets, private boats, chalets in Switzerland, apartments in Paris and New York, luxurious villas here and there. One of my friends worked for a lawyer who earned 800 million euros per year and only declared 80 000 euros of income. The lawyer paid my friend only 600 euros per month and at some point even asked her to write in her tax declaration that her income was 3000 euros so that the guy could get a tax reduction, and she refused of course. He kept pressuring her so much that she had to resign in the end. I have heard similar stories about other famous lawyers and doctors.

 

That's not very encouraging news. It really is necessary to step up tax collection if Greece is to have a chance of extricating itself from its current problems.

 

An alternative for Greece might be declaring bankrupcy, though that scenario has its own set of problems and in the current climate, may spread the crisis to other countries in the Eurozone (and perhaps beyond) to the extent that it might kill the Euro and lead to a return of the national currencies.

[ramza]

Just a small clarification on my last post, the lawyer in question earned 800 000 euros and not 800 million euros per year. I wonder how I managed to make such a big mistake. I guess I was listening at the tv news while typing...

 

I took a look at Eurostats' numbers and they say indeed that the minimum wages in Greece in January 2010 were 862 euros. The only logical explanation is that this may the salary without including taxes. I have searched on multiple Greek sources and all say that the minimum salary was 739 euros in 2009 (not including taxes). The problem with Eurostat is that they fail to take in account some parameters due to the lack of proximity with the real situation in each country. Yet, it's a useful tool to give you a general idea of what is happening. Here's the table:

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm/print...intPreview=true

 

Well, I would like to share your optimism but all my colleagues get miserable salaries compared to their level of studies. I don't see why it should be different for me. I have already taken my decision to leave the country even if this saddens me.

 

People have calmed down here temporarily as it was a real shock when they learned that 3 people had died during last week's protests. I am however afraid to see their reaction once they get their salary sheet at the beginning of next month. I haven't heard of any strikes scheduled for this week at least.

[ramza]

I am just popping in to share a BBC news video about the Greek-Turkish relationship:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8681835.stm

 

I am not trying to do any propaganda but I am pleasantly surprised that, for once, we are not being accused of being paranoid with Turkey and should spend less on military equipment.

 

Cheers.