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Lets talk about Greece


Meshugger

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Because in comparison to Iceland, those greeks are a bunch of cheating thieves.

 

I think that the bail-out is way too generous and will not curb the underlying problem: corruption. I say that the lenders should be given some real collateral instead. For example, the finnish state has authorized a loan of 1,7 billion euros to Greece (this is roughly the same amount as the annual budget for healthcare, studentsubsidies, and social welfare combined in Finland), and since they have credit rating of the lousiest order, we should be given land until the debt is payed.

 

 

Fail to pay, and there's no Greece left; only land for the lenders to do as they wish.

"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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It's important that not the Greek people, but the corrupt politicians and bureaucracy is penalized. So taking land for hostage is kinda stupid idea.

 

Read the article in my link again :lol:

"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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we should be given land until the debt is payed.

I like this idea. This way China could annex half the USA.

 

If the US state credit rating goes down to the same as Greece, sure go for it. China and Japan will roughly own 75% of the US land, while EU will be battling for Oklahoma with the Saudis.

 

Point being, do not lend to countries with crap credit rating.

"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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The Greek politicians may be corrupt, but the Greek people are possibly even more so. It's a cultural thing and something they'll need to change. The citizens there will have to start treating tax as a compulsory thing, for instance. Another example is the ridiculous rioting they do every few years because they are angry that things aren't free.

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we should be given land until the debt is payed.

I like this idea. This way China could annex half the USA.

 

If the US state credit rating goes down to the same as Greece, sure go for it. China and Japan will roughly own 75% of the US land

 

50%, actually. And that's only public debt.

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I've been to Greece and to say that the country is a little corrupt is a gross understatement. I've never seen similar things in any western country.

"Well, overkill is my middle name. And my last name. And all of my other names as well!"

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I thought it was rather funny that the Icelandic people got to vote on whether or not they were going to pay off their debts or not. I wonder if I should declare myself a country and inform the bank that I had unilaterally decided not to pay what I owe.

 

Individuals can file for bankruptcy too. Defaulting would tear Iceland 10 new arseholes. I don't see your point.

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Watching those protesters, you sort of get the urge to throw in a few extra tear gas grenades... eventually they will have to grow up, accept responsibility for their actions and live according to their means.

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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I have to agree. I had held off posting a thread like this because I was, like: "Surely I can't have understood this. They double public sector pay, refuse to pay taxes, and then throw a hissy fit because everything goes **** up?" I wouldn't mind if the people rioting were the bastards who DID pay some tax. BUt no, it's LoF's mates.

 

Actually, LoF, you should get in there. All that tear gas. Emotions running high. No real chance of getting killed. You'll be dining off that in trendy coffee houses for years.

"It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"."

             -Elwood Blues

 

tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp.

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I have to agree. I had held off posting a thread like this because I was, like: "Surely I can't have understood this. They double public sector pay, refuse to pay taxes, and then throw a hissy fit because everything goes **** up?" I wouldn't mind if the people rioting were the bastards who DID pay some tax. BUt no, it's LoF's mates.

That's... wrong, for want of a better term. On two counts.

 

The primary reason Greece is in the trouble it is now is because it's last, conservative government, was grossly corrupt and flagrantly cooked the books/ dropped the proverbial dead cow down the well which understandably also dropped Greece's credibility through the floor and has given them no leeway whatsoever- more people in Greece pay taxes than do in that well known hotbed of anarchism and the, er, United States of America, after all. Everyone knows about the general corruption, it was the book cooking which has precipitated this mess though.

 

Secondly, most actual rioters in Greece tend to be anarchists, though they may be generally Marxist in philosophy as well, rather than classical communists- they are far more liberal and anti-authority than classical communists. LoF, or at least his epersona, would probably not fit in with that.

Edited by Zoraptor
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I find it extremely funny that it was Greece that objected about Finland's EU membership and now off we are to safe those corrupt ****ers. I hope they use at least part of that 80 billion euros to build few prisons for all those tax evaders. I don't think they will learn otherwise...

Edited by Gorth
Language

Hate the living, love the dead.

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I keep reading stereotypes and I am sincerely getting fed up with all the disinformation. The Greek problem is a very complex one and cannot be resumed in 2 or 3 sentences.

 

Here are a few things you should know:

 

-The media say the legal retirement age in Greece is at 53 years of age. This is wrong, it is 60 years of age just like in most European countries at the moment. There are a few exceptions for special categories of people such as women with 3 or more kids, but I agree those privileges should be abolished.

-True, there are way too many civil servants and their numbers should be reduced.

-The crisis mainly comes from the corrupt politicians who put all the tax money in their own pockets and built luxurious villas. I am still surprised that the current Government hasn't done anything to punish all those people (again, I suspect this involves at least 60% of the politicians, so everyone would have to go to prison). They are simply covering each other's frauds...

-Another reason for the deficits are that we kept having politicians that were giving away social advantages for 30 years (early retirement for women, bonuses to civil servants, social grants, etc) in order to get the people's votes.

-The average Greek salary is between 700 and 1500 euros (even at the end of your professional career). The cost of life is the same (I would even dare say more expensive) than any western European country. There is no way you can live decently with such wages. Most young people still live at their parents' place. Some people are even forced to take a second job in order to cover all their expenses and feed their families. The reason they do not pay all their taxes is due to the fact that they know tax money isn't used wisely, so why not keep it for themselves? This is where we come at a vicious circle.

-The media show Greeks as being rich and lazy. Wrong, there is indeed a "rich" social class but they do not represent what happens in the middle and lower classes. These people live luxuriously and in a very provocative manner. These are mainly the ones that do not pay their taxes. The new fiscal measures do not aim them once again and they keep living

-The rioters are small group of anarchists and do not represent in any way the general Greek population and public opinion. Ask anyone in the street and they will disapprove of rioting altogether.

-Most of Greece's money goes on importation of European (mainly France and Germany) and American products and military equipment. The people/countries they buy these from are the same ones that lend their money to Greece.

-Some people say we should spend less money on military equipment. But I ask you this: what would you do if you had a neighboring country that sends F16s daily over your territory and that even sends military ships at proximity of your capital? In the past, Greece has been let down by its allies when there were problems with Turkey. That is why they have to rely on themselves to fend off a potential invasion (for example, the Turkish army had planned to invade part of Thrace last year - even though their plans were to declare martial law within Turkey and destitute the current Government and not to conquer Greece).

-The Church, for some reason, is above the laws. It pays almost no taxes and the priest are paid by the State. The Church also own private properties estimated at 700 million euros. It is unfair that they do not contribute in helping the Country to recover from its dire situation.

-There has been some dirty game being played on the financial markets. After being saved by the States, the banks turned against the States and do anything they can to extort them money with high interest rates. I suspect Greece is just the beginning of a bigger crisis. France, the UK and the US are in MUCH worse condition than Greece. Moreover, this whole crisis benefited a lot Germany since many funds moved from Greek banks to German banks. Finally, the rating agencies seem to be quite arbitrary and seem to work together with the hedge funds that bet on the bankruptcy of Countries. Remember when they were rating the subprimes as AAA? They didn't even predict the 2008 crisis. Why should we trust them to begin with? True, Greece is not in a good financial state but the games played by the rating agencies and hedge funds only made things worse.

 

 

It's just for thought. You will realize that the problem is complex and that everyone is to blame in this situation.

"Ooo, squirrels, Boo! I know I saw them! Quick, throw nuts!" -Minsc

"I am a well-known racist in the Realms! Elves? Dwarves? Ha! Kill'em all! Humans rule! -Me

 

Volourn will never grow up, he's like the Black Peter Pan, here to tell you that it might be great to always be a child, but everybody around is gonna hate it. :p
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I find it extremely funny that it was Greece that objected about Finland's EU membership and now off we are to safe those corrupt ****ers. I hope they use at least part of that 80 billion euros to build few prisons for all those tax evaders. I don't think they will learn otherwise...

 

Stop making stuff up. I am specialized in EU matters and never heard or read anything of the sort. Why would Greece even do that in the first place? Those two countries do not even have any litigation between them...

"Ooo, squirrels, Boo! I know I saw them! Quick, throw nuts!" -Minsc

"I am a well-known racist in the Realms! Elves? Dwarves? Ha! Kill'em all! Humans rule! -Me

 

Volourn will never grow up, he's like the Black Peter Pan, here to tell you that it might be great to always be a child, but everybody around is gonna hate it. :p
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Having previously had zero knowledge about the Greek economy, I am hesitant to be drawn into passing judgement on them as if I had always despised their practices. It seems undeniable that there are huge problems that need to be tackled here, but in at least the articles I've read I've been impressed by the current Greek government's honesty about this and their willingness to tackle issues in a practical manner. Korea was one of the countries who pretty much had an economic implosion in '98 with the IMF crisis, and they've made a good recovery - although, that crisis came to a country that was in very rapid growth beforehand. I think it will take on a major significane in EU politics, though, I can easily imagine UK or Spain going through a dire economic situation in the next decade or so and this will be a precedent.

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But Tigs, my impression of the Koreans is that they are basically the only people who consider the German work ethic to be too frivolous. :)

 

Ramza, I thank you for taking the trouble to list counters to the public misconceptions. I'm quite prepared to take you at your workd on all points, if you can confirm you stand by them. I did after all say I wasn't sure I understood the story.

 

But I still maintain the rioting is blatantly the best opportunity I've seen in ages for LoF to get his leg over.

"It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"."

             -Elwood Blues

 

tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp.

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I keep reading stereotypes and I am sincerely getting fed up with all the disinformation. The Greek problem is a very complex one and cannot be resumed in 2 or 3 sentences.

 

Here are a few things you should know:

 

-The media say the legal retirement age in Greece is at 53 years of age. This is wrong, it is 60 years of age just like in most European countries at the moment. There are a few exceptions for special categories of people such as women with 3 or more kids, but I agree those privileges should be abolished.

-True, there are way too many civil servants and their numbers should be reduced.

-The crisis mainly comes from the corrupt politicians who put all the tax money in their own pockets and built luxurious villas. I am still surprised that the current Government hasn't done anything to punish all those people (again, I suspect this involves at least 60% of the politicians, so everyone would have to go to prison). They are simply covering each other's frauds...

-Another reason for the deficits are that we kept having politicians that were giving away social advantages for 30 years (early retirement for women, bonuses to civil servants, social grants, etc) in order to get the people's votes.

-The average Greek salary is between 700 and 1500 euros (even at the end of your professional career). The cost of life is the same (I would even dare say more expensive) than any western European country. There is no way you can live decently with such wages. Most young people still live at their parents' place. Some people are even forced to take a second job in order to cover all their expenses and feed their families. The reason they do not pay all their taxes is due to the fact that they know tax money isn't used wisely, so why not keep it for themselves? This is where we come at a vicious circle.

-The media show Greeks as being rich and lazy. Wrong, there is indeed a "rich" social class but they do not represent what happens in the middle and lower classes. These people live luxuriously and in a very provocative manner. These are mainly the ones that do not pay their taxes. The new fiscal measures do not aim them once again and they keep living

-The rioters are small group of anarchists and do not represent in any way the general Greek population and public opinion. Ask anyone in the street and they will disapprove of rioting altogether.

-Most of Greece's money goes on importation of European (mainly France and Germany) and American products and military equipment. The people/countries they buy these from are the same ones that lend their money to Greece.

-Some people say we should spend less money on military equipment. But I ask you this: what would you do if you had a neighboring country that sends F16s daily over your territory and that even sends military ships at proximity of your capital? In the past, Greece has been let down by its allies when there were problems with Turkey. That is why they have to rely on themselves to fend off a potential invasion (for example, the Turkish army had planned to invade part of Thrace last year - even though their plans were to declare martial law within Turkey and destitute the current Government and not to conquer Greece).

-The Church, for some reason, is above the laws. It pays almost no taxes and the priest are paid by the State. The Church also own private properties estimated at 700 million euros. It is unfair that they do not contribute in helping the Country to recover from its dire situation.

-There has been some dirty game being played on the financial markets. After being saved by the States, the banks turned against the States and do anything they can to extort them money with high interest rates. I suspect Greece is just the beginning of a bigger crisis. France, the UK and the US are in MUCH worse condition than Greece. Moreover, this whole crisis benefited a lot Germany since many funds moved from Greek banks to German banks. Finally, the rating agencies seem to be quite arbitrary and seem to work together with the hedge funds that bet on the bankruptcy of Countries. Remember when they were rating the subprimes as AAA? They didn't even predict the 2008 crisis. Why should we trust them to begin with? True, Greece is not in a good financial state but the games played by the rating agencies and hedge funds only made things worse.

 

 

It's just for thought. You will realize that the problem is complex and that everyone is to blame in this situation.

 

Thank you.

 

What you guys really need is a complete overhaul of the taxcode + complete change in selfdiscipline when it comes to taxes. I think that it is still possible when you are dealing with other peoples money. Sadly, this will take a generation or two.

"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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Oh, and another question: Why is 70% of the greek population against the ECB/IMF-loans?

"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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Share on other sites

Oh, and another question: Why is 70% of the greek population against the ECB/IMF-loans?

 

Who the hell wants to go badly into debt?

"It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"."

             -Elwood Blues

 

tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp.

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