Healthcare in America

[Meshugger]

Nothing's gonna happen. No revolution, nada. When the avarage joe realizes that his everyday job is still the same, there's still bills to pay, kids to watch, and his favourite TV-show is still broadcasting, what is he going to care? That some guy, somewhere might get a fraction of his taxmoney for a broken toe? Give me a break! Are the Rangers playing in the play-offs? Awesome! Is junior getting good grades in school? Great! How's work then? Still a b*tch, but he's getting by.

[Walsingham]

Well, this thread is growing apace. I hope someone has time to read my responses below. I've tried to distill out general themes.

 

1. The system will be mismanaged

 

I think this is probably the best counterargument. The US govt. does arse some things royally. My counter is the military. Your military is fething awesome in almost every sense and particularly veteran care (to the best of my knowledge although I concede there are other forumites with better background on this point). However, if I am incorrect in my apprehension and the US govt cannot do anything right then I put it to you that you need to FIX THIS IMMEDIATELY.

 

2. The system won't tackle actual costs

 

My instinct tells me that this will be the crucial factor. Without controlling the means of supply, rather than just setting up hospitals/medics, the govt. is setting themselves up to be fleeced

 

3. People will get stuff they don't deserve

 

I still find this the most asinine objection. The cretinous caveman understood that working with other cavemen to bring down a mammoth would result in an unfair share of spoils, but nevertheless meant he got a good deal. If going public health costs you less as both a private consumer and as an employer/purchaser then WTF? You get cheaper healthcare AND get to help other people. Where's the big deal?

 

Don't even get me started on this point as a Christian.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I wonder if a due process argument can be made here. You're being fined without being convicted of anything, thus your due process rights are violated. Tenth Amendment is dead because of the abuse of the Commerce Clause, but due process is very much alive and is ever being expanded.

[lord of flies]

Who gives a **** about the constitution? The US is a soon-to-be dead state anyway. We spend about as much on military as the rest of the world combined. We have a rising debt that's over a hundred times the debt of the Soviet Union at the end of the Brezhnev era. We are occupying two countries and soon to add a third or fourth (Yemen, Somalia). Our prison population competes per capita with the Gulag during the High Stalin period. Our "democracy" is a miserable failure where you get to choose between "****ty conservatives" and "****ty conservatives who are honest about it," where money is considered speech and where (effectively) only rich people can run for office. Our corporations keep their money in other countries and you can sign away your right to sue.

 

How is this system supposed to last?

Edited March 23, 2010 by lord of flies

[Wrath of Dagon]

Why the hell aren't you in Cuba yet?

[lord of flies]

Why the hell aren't you in Cuba yet?

How will I participate in the upcoming socialist revolution in the United States if I'm in Cuba? Think before you post.

[GreasyDogMeat]

Why the hell aren't you in Cuba yet?

'Cause the man is keeping him down and he's too much of a wussy to do it like the real Cubans with a raft and a prayer.

 

Not that I blame him. I'd be after 5 minutes in one of those rafts.

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

I'd say it was good news if I didn't think the main problem with healthcare was the ridiculous price, which doesn't seem like what they're trying to fix in the first place.

[Tigranes]

Hang on, hang on.

 

A night at a hospital can run you $10-20k even without surgery. There are major problems with health care costs in this country. This bill doesn't fix that, but it could open the door to further reform.

 

Why? My mother just stayed the weekend at a private hospital and got abdominal hysterectomy done for less than 10K NZD. How does this work?

[Wrath of Dagon]

Why the hell aren't you in Cuba yet?

How will I participate in the upcoming socialist revolution in the United States if I'm in Cuba? Think before you post.

The problem with a socialist revolution in the US is that everyone is heavily armed, and the right wingers would kick your scrawny commie asses anyway.

[Humodour]

If you don't like it you can go to Canada--oh, wait!

 

I don't think Mexico has government health care. There is an option.

 

Nope, sorry. Mexico has universal healthcare (although a different system).

 

When we say America is the only Western country without universal healthcare, we aren't exaggerating.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_i...h_care_delivery

 

The schism of this bill and among other issues is why I believe this nation, and we as a people, would be better off if we broke ourselves up into smaller nations.

 

It does sound like a good idea...

 

Well, this thread is growing apace. I hope someone has time to read my responses below. I've tried to distill out general themes.

 

1. The system will be mismanaged

 

I think this is probably the best counterargument. The US govt. does arse some things royally. My counter is the military. Your military is fething awesome in almost every sense and particularly veteran care (to the best of my knowledge although I concede there are other forumites with better background on this point). However, if I am incorrect in my apprehension and the US govt cannot do anything right then I put it to you that you need to FIX THIS IMMEDIATELY.

 

Actually, America has the most poorly mismanaged and wasteful military out of the countries which comprise 90% of the world's defence spending, monetarily speaking.

 

I guess I have to mention that Australia has the second worst military economic management of those top 90% of countries. A massive cost-analysis and waste cutback plan is now in the works here in response to the study, but I'm not sure how America responded to it.

[lord of flies]

Why the hell aren't you in Cuba yet?

How will I participate in the upcoming socialist revolution in the United States if I'm in Cuba? Think before you post.

The problem with a socialist revolution in the US is that everyone is heavily armed, and the right wingers would kick your scrawny commie asses anyway.

The problem with a socialist revolution in the Russian Empire is that everyone is heavily armed, and the right wingers would kick your scrawny bolshie asses anyway.

[Hurlshort]

Hang on, hang on.

 

A night at a hospital can run you $10-20k even without surgery. There are major problems with health care costs in this country. This bill doesn't fix that, but it could open the door to further reform.

 

Why? My mother just stayed the weekend at a private hospital and got abdominal hysterectomy done for less than 10K NZD. How does this work?

 

Actually quite a few Americans are traveling out of the country for certain procedures, particularly ones that aren't covered by health insurance.

[Walsingham]

Why the hell aren't you in Cuba yet?

How will I participate in the upcoming socialist revolution in the United States if I'm in Cuba? Think before you post.

 

You should at least spend some time in Cuba. You could get training, like the WUO.

[Darth InSidious]

Why the hell aren't you in Cuba yet?

Champagne communism is more fun.

[Walsingham]

Why the hell aren't you in Cuba yet?

Champagne communism is more fun.

 

Hold on. You can hardly claim that sitting comfortably at home and arguing blindly with us online isn't hardship in the style of the great union heroes of yesteryear.

[Amentep]

Well see, he left out one minor detail of having to have surgery and having a titanium rod placed in his leg from knee to ankle.

 

80000 dollars is still way too much. Unless they replaced the leg with a golden one with studded diamonds and breasts.

 

Go big or go home. I really doubt the materials are the problem in terms of cost, the rod could not have been much more than $1k. In fact I get it out in a few months, I hope I get to keep it!

 

A night at a hospital can run you $10-20k even without surgery. There are major problems with health care costs in this country. This bill doesn't fix that, but it could open the door to further reform.

 

Not including the one night at the hospital, I think my broken ankle ended up costing me about $25,000; IIRC half of it was for the hospitals "stuff" during the out-patient surgery (including the plate & screws they put in) and the rest covered the doctor, anesthesiologist, etc.

 

I'd imagine it'd have been a lot more had I paid for the night in the hospital (and the painkillers).

[Gfted1]

Tea partiers vow revenge over health overhaul

 

Mar 23, 3:12 AM (ET)

 

By BRENDAN FARRINGTON

 

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (AP) - Tea party activists aren't just angry that Democrats passed a major health care overhaul, they are out for revenge.

 

They do not see passage of the landmark reforms that usher in near-universal medical coverage as the end of the debate. Tea partiers instead vow to support attorneys general who plan a lawsuit seeking to declare the law unconstitutional. They are demanding the bill be repealed or not funded and want to kick out of office all supporters of the measure.

 

So far, the nascent movement has almost reveled in its rebellious and grass roots nature and has avoided becoming as much a part of the establishment as the Republican and Democratic parties. But some tea party organizers see the health care debate as a galvanizing force that could stir its followers to greater action and something to rally around with midterm elections this year.

 

In states across the country, tea party groups planned protests and vowed to target any congressional member who supported the measure passed Sunday night.

 

"There's going to be a whole, all-out effort for an Election Day onslaught," said Michael Caputo, a public relations consultant who works with tea party activists on the national level, as well as in Florida and New York. "The health care process has been an incendiary issue for the tea party organizations since Day 1. Losing that vote is going to inflame them more."

 

The number of tea party groups has been growing for a little more then a year. Many in the movement were previously not politically active and have a strong independent streak, making organization sometimes difficult.

 

Most share a common belief that government spending and influence should be limited and they're angry about policies President Barack Obama and the Democratic-controlled Congress are implementing, including last year's $787 billion federal stimulus package and health care.

 

In a conference call with tea party activists Monday night, Eric Odom of the Patriot Caucus mapped ambitious plans to set up state chapters, organize voters online and raise money to oust incumbents who supported the health care overhaul.

 

He predicted the vote would increase support for the movement across the country.

 

The government "has declared war on our way of life," Odom from Nevada told listeners.

 

"It's now time to boot them from office," said Odom, who chairs the Liberty First PAC, a fundraising arm of the group. "We absolutely must have your help."

 

In Florida, about 85 tea party groups encompass about 100,000 people, according to Everett Wilkinson, a leader in the state's movement. A small rally is being planned in Boca Raton on Tuesday with more likely the rest of the week in response to the vote, he said.

 

There are similar reactions elsewhere.

 

"We will be more determined than ever to see that this country is governed the way the constitution intended," said Brenda Bowen, a tea party organizer in Greenville, Ala. "We are all getting our second wind. When we do, you'd better watch out."

 

Even though they didn't stop the bill, Tim Dake, organizer of the Milwaukee-area group GrandSons of Liberty, said he and others intend to push for a state constitutional amendment that would prohibit forcing people to buy health insurance. The amendment has been introduced by Republicans in the Democratic-controlled Wisconsin Legislature, but there are no plans to hold a hearing on it.

 

The Republican-controlled Legislature is pushing a similar measure in Florida. If lawmakers put it on the ballot, at least 60 percent of voters would have to approve it.

 

Christen Varley, head of the Greater Boston Tea Party Organizers, said the House health vote was both "heartbreaking" and a wake-up call.

 

"I think we all went to bed a little dejected last night, but from the communication I received this morning, people are energized," said Varley. Sarah Palin is scheduled to headline a tea party rally on historic Boston Common on April 14.

 

Massachusetts already has a form of universal health care, yet the state made passage of the bill more difficult when voters elected Republican Scott Brown to replace the late Sen. Ted Kennedy - who spent nearly his entire career pushing for health care for all. Brown's election took away Democrats' filibuster-proof majority in the Senate.

 

Willie Lawson, a Tampa-area conservative radio talk show host who speaks at tea party rallies, wondered what effect the vote will have on an April 15 event at a University of South Florida stadium.

 

"It's just a big punch in the gut. It really is to a lot of people," said Lawson, who wondered whether people new to the movement will be discouraged by the vote and not bother to come. Others, he's sure, will be more fired up.

 

"For some people it will just be more raw meat, more raw meat out the back door to get people to come," he said. "The hardcore people will be there. They'll be angrier than ever."

 

Whether or not tea partiers will be able to turn anger into organization may vary from state to state.

 

"People in the Tea Party movement are fiercely independent. They don't like being told what to do. It's like herding cats," said Chad Capps, strategy coordinator for a Huntsville, Ala., group.

 

While tea party activists have made themselves heard, University of North Florida political science professor Matthew Corrigan said the movement alone won't be enough to oust incumbents.

 

"Do they have energy? Yes. Have they been getting into the media? Yes, but they still haven't sold me on the fact that they can swing elections," Corrigan said. He added, however, that tea party activists could be more influential if they work with Republicans against Democrats.

 

And for Wilkinson, it doesn't just stop at voting out the lawmakers who supported the measure.

 

"When they leave office, we're going to make sure the private sector is aware of who they are and we'll make it virtually impossible for them to have a job even after they leave office," Wilkinson said. "Wherever they are, we will be there. We are not stopping. We're not going away. This is just the beginning."

 

A very small organization that you may recall has been credited with swinging Massachusetts out of a 40+ year stranglehold held by the Democrats. While its too late to put this genie back in the bottle, it will be delicious to see how badly the Dems get gutted in the midterms.

[Killian Kalthorne]

If they are gutted.

 

In any case it is encouraging to see politicians do what is good for the US over what is good for their careers.

[Gfted1]

In any case it is encouraging to see politicians do what is good for the US over what is good for their careers.

 

 

BACKROOM DEALS IN THE DEMOCRAT HEALTH CARE TAKEOVER

 

Cornhusker Kickback: Perhaps the most well known in the Senate bill, the provision, included at the behest of Sen. Ben Nelson (D-NE), ensures that Nebraska would be the only state to have the full amount of its increased Medicaid costs paid for by the federal government.

 

The Louisiana Purchase: The Senate bill provides extra Medicaid funding for any state in which every county has been declared a disaster area. Because of Hurricane Katrina, Louisiana is the only state that would qualify for the money. The $300 million provision for Louisiana was slipped in late in the process to persuade Sen. Mary Landrieu (D-LA) to support the health care takeover.

 

Gator Aid: At the request of Sen. Bill Nelson (D-Fl), the Senate bill includes a formula for protecting certain Medicare Advantage enrollees from billions in cuts. The formula would only apply to five states, most notably to Florida in which 800,000 of the state

[Killian Kalthorne]

Of course there are backroom deals. HELLO! U.S. POLITICS CALLING!

 

In every bill there are backroom deals. The only difference between Democrats and Republicans on this issue is that the Republicans can hide it better. If you think this is the first bill in the history of the United States that has ever had backroom deals done you are sadly naive.

[Killian Kalthorne]

SMILE! The fight has just begun!

[Amentep]

While its too late to put this genie back in the bottle, it will be delicious to see how badly the Dems get gutted in the midterms.

 

I think the imminent legal challenges from the states and the potential passing of local legislation to prohibit mandatory insurance and possible other challenges indicate it will be many years before its "too late" for the genie to be put back in the bottle.

[Walsingham]

I know this will make Sand all fuzzy, but I have to agree. Has there EVER been a US congressional move without backhanders? Gfted1, you're a smart fellah and however strongly we both feel about this, you must recognise that point is awfully weak. I'm surprised you fielded it.

[Killian Kalthorne]

Oh, that warm and giggly feeling is back.