Dragon Age Discussion

[Gromnir]

Can you provide a fantasy story that is nihilistic but not dark?

 

yes. already done so.

 

might wanna throw Heinlein into the mix. 'cause o' hitler's fascination with Nietzsche we got a baby and bathwater scenario, so Heinlein were hardly enjoying the nihilist label... but it stuck, and for good reason. his stories weren't particularly dark, but almost always involved the triumph o' human spirit in face o' adversity... even if it were society creating the adversity.

 

the problem is that most fantasy/sf authors got the same misapprehension or fear o' nihilism that does the ordinary Joe on the street. nihilism = fascism and evil and other sorts o' stuff... death metal and goths.

 

*snort*

 

part o' the problem is the label. for instance, Nietzsche by no means believed that all human action were pointless... can't have ubermesch AND a philosophy that all human action is pointless, eh? the classic nihilist probable don't fit into mc's definition o' nihilism.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited March 12, 2010 by Gromnir

[Bos_hybrid]

DAO is worse than BGII because BGII is the better game. That's all there is to it. Just wake up and smell the roses because no amount of bickering and vague claims will change that.

 

You sure you aren't Vols alt? Because that reads like something he would say.(just swap BG2 with NWN).

 

Neither your nor mine personal tastes figure into the equation.

 

[Niten_Ryu]

the acts o' the nihilist hero is damned important... to the hero himself, and to those who follow him.

 

Aha.

 

Another difference. In my scenario nihilist wouldn't give a damn about what he does nor what his followers think of him or his actions. In your scenario hero still belives something - He belives himself and his actions. This includes "right makes might" but of course are not limited to that. Hero doesn't embrace the nothingness and thus strangly enough have some hope left in him. I understand your view point much better now.

[Wrath of Dagon]

ni

[Gromnir]

oh, well, if you found in dictionary.com that must be definitive.

 

*chuckle*

 

in any event, def 1 doesn't require dark.

 

def 2 does not either... is an "or" definition. revolutionary not require dark.

 

def 3... yeah, is the silly post hitler definition that not have anything to do with nihilism as a philosophy or school o' thought.

 

def 4... again, no requisite dark.

 

def 5... clearly you were not using in the context of a particular russian revolutionary group, so we can exclude def 5.

 

def 6 also does not have no inherent dark.

 

so, you use an online dictionary definition to prove... what?

 

btw, your original quote: "Usually I consider something dark if it has a cynical or nihilistic view of the human condition." gosh, you reference a nihilistic view o' the human condition... and then balk when folks suggest you is using nihilism as a philosophical perspective? HA!

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

side note: there is actual multiple entries at dictionary.com. random house dictionary includes the def 3, but american heritage does not. so, is not even consensus 'mongst dictionaries, eh?

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nihilism

Edited March 12, 2010 by Gromnir

[Tel Aviv]

Man, Dostoevsky made a career out of nihilism and none of it positive.

[Gromnir]

Man, Dostoevsky made a career out of nihilism and none of it positive.

 

wrath might have had more luck if he declared that russian lit = dark rather than nihilism = dark. am being hyperbolic and am certain that somebody can identify a famous russian author who did not do dark... but we cannot think of one at the moment.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Orogun01]

Man, Dostoevsky made a career out of nihilism and none of it positive.

 

wrath might have had more luck if he declared that russian lit = dark rather than nihilism = dark. am being hyperbolic and am certain that somebody can identify a famous russian author who did not do dark... but we cannot think of one at the moment.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Tolstoy? Nabokov?

Edited March 12, 2010 by Orogun01

[Gromnir]

Man, Dostoevsky made a career out of nihilism and none of it positive.

 

wrath might have had more luck if he declared that russian lit = dark rather than nihilism = dark. am being hyperbolic and am certain that somebody can identify a famous russian author who did not do dark... but we cannot think of one at the moment.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Tolstoy? Nabokov?

 

tolstoy is pretty damned gloomy... but oddly enough, the epilogues from war and peace is relative positive. anna kerenina is a hoot with the titular character committing suicide, and resurrection is thankfully forgotten with characters so dismal and hopeless as to be caricatures more than believable peoples.

 

nabokov? suicides, pedophiles, insane protagonists, tortured loves and failed murders... though we never could figure out how to describe Pnin as it seems quirky w/o much of nabokov's typical malice. there IS some short stories by nabokov that is non-dark.

 

dunno.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[RPGmasterBoo]

Actually Bulgakov doesn't fall into that same gloomy crowd. His principal work "Master and Margaret" is still pretty dark though.

 

You can't really sum up nihilism with a dictionary entry that takes 6 disparate definition without bothering to sum up where each one is from.

 

Political nihilism that led to various bombings and assassinations at the end of the 19th century has very little to do with moral nihilism which in turn has little to do with metaphysical nihilism. The only common ground is rejection, of political systems or moral norms or something else. Otherwise you're talking about a bunch of different things.

 

Nothing is inherently dark in fiction. 'Dark' refers to elements that tend to cause a negative emotional reactions. Do nihilistic concepts cause negative emotional reactions? They do, consistantly. See, The Unbearable Lightness of Being. There are very few stories about how being meaningless in the scheme of things is great, but there are many about how it's horrible. Why? Because people dislike the idea that life and morality are ultimately meaningless.

 

Now, you might find that reaction stupid or wrong, but that's still a consistant reaction.

 

But nihilism isn't about meaninglessness - at least not of the sort you're implying. If a nihilist is arguing that say moral norms have no meaning its not beacuse he's a "coffe shop goth" but because he can offer a philosophical argument that those norms are contrived, a fiction created by society etc. Its just a viewpoint, there's nothing dark about it.

It infers negative reactions among those that don't really get it but dislike what it implies. That's how you get an instant nihilism=something bad, reaction. That may be the reaction of the majority but why are we following their criteria?

[Wrath of Dagon]

I mostly meant definition 3, since I also said cynical. Don't care much for philosophy anyway.

[Gromnir]

I mostly meant definition 3, since I also said cynical. Don't care much for philosophy anyway.

 

what you said was:

 

"Usually I consider something dark if it has a cynical or nihilistic view of the human condition."

 

definition 3 actually works less in such a case. you bring up definition of nihilism (n.). now make into and adjective modifying "view"... more specific, "view of the human condition." a noun describing a destructive impulse not work so well as an adjective modifying a view of human the human condition.

 

well, no biggie. your mistake results in a little enlightenment for you and others. Nietzsche would be pleased.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[213374U]

Nietzsche would be pleased.

But would he? What's the point, after all...

 

I kid, I kid!

[Wrath of Dagon]

I mostly meant definition 3, since I also said cynical. Don't care much for philosophy anyway.

 

what you said was:

 

"Usually I consider something dark if it has a cynical or nihilistic view of the human condition."

 

definition 3 actually works less in such a case. you bring up definition of nihilism (n.). now make into and adjective modifying "view"... more specific, "view of the human condition." a noun describing a destructive impulse not work so well as an adjective modifying a view of human the human condition.

 

well, no biggie. your mistake results in a little enlightenment for you and others. Nietzsche would be pleased.

 

HA! Good Fun!

So you're complaining I gave the definition for a noun when I originally used an adjective? ****ing lawyers.

Edited March 12, 2010 by Wrath of Dagon

[Gromnir]

I mostly meant definition 3, since I also said cynical. Don't care much for philosophy anyway.

 

what you said was:

 

"Usually I consider something dark if it has a cynical or nihilistic view of the human condition."

 

definition 3 actually works less in such a case. you bring up definition of nihilism (n.). now make into and adjective modifying "view"... more specific, "view of the human condition." a noun describing a destructive impulse not work so well as an adjective modifying a view of human the human condition.

 

well, no biggie. your mistake results in a little enlightenment for you and others. Nietzsche would be pleased.

 

HA! Good Fun!

So you're complaining I gave the definition for a noun when I originally used an adjective? ****ing lawyers.

 

you coulda' let it go.

 

the definition you insist is appropriate, and is s'posed the one you were meaning, does not work in the context of the sentence you provided.

 

so go ahead and explain how definition 3 works in the following sentence:

 

"Usually I consider something dark if it has a cynical or nihilistic view of the human condition."

 

nihilism in def. 3 is a destructive impulse... a noun. some nouns work very well as adjectives. others do not. you chose... poorly. is not a matter o' grammar. is a matter o' poorly considered backpedaling. def 3 does not transition to an adjective that can actually modify "view of the human condition." so, either you didn't actually understand the definition, or your random grab for a definition that might work was tripped up 'cause you didn't actually bother to read in the context of your original sentence.

 

in any event, am wondering if anybody has gotten feedback as to why the new powhaz in the expansion will not be available to those playing the oc. Gromnir's guess were balance, but that is just a guess based on pretty much zippo.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Wrath of Dagon]

Just add "characterized by". So someone who's nihilistic would have destructive tendencies to himself and others, or in the case of my post, would have the view of the human life and morals as being worthy of destruction. Notice also I didn't use the exact dictionary definition, but a general sense of what the word means in normal usage. The point being I was not referring to the name of the philosophy, the tenets of which I'm not particularly familiar with.

[Gromnir]

Just add "characterized by". So someone who's nihilistic would have destructive tendencies to himself and others, or in the case of my post, would have the view of the human life and morals as being worthy of destruction. Notice also I didn't use the exact dictionary definition, but a general sense of what the word means in normal usage. The point being I was not referring to the name of the philosophy, the tenets of which I'm not particularly familiar with.

 

 

sure, sure... no doubt you can re-write sentence a few more times... and if you used "general sense" then why throw up the dictionary definition in the first place? you seem more than a little confused.

 

*shrug*

 

well, you learned something...

 

in any event, am more curious about the non-implementation of new powhaz in the da:o oc... is almost as perplexing as your so-called explanations.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Wrath of Dagon]

I brought up the dictionary definition because you seemed to be assuming the word nihilism can only apply to the philosophy, so I demonstrated it has other meanings. Good thing I didn't say 'utilitarian'.

[Gromnir]

I brought up the dictionary definition because you seemed to be assuming the word nihilism can only apply to the philosophy, so I demonstrated it has other meanings. Good thing I didn't say 'utilitarian'.

 

so instead you use a dictionary definition that didn't support your usage?

 

...

 

okie dokie.

 

as for utilitarian... you woulda had even more difficulty explaining how a "utilitarian view of the human condition" helped your pov. wanna try the dictionary route again?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Morgoth]

So, anybody already playing the Awakening expansion?

 

The Codex says it sucks donkey ballz, but then again, it's the Codex....

[Orogun01]

Patch 1.03 here Edited March 14, 2010 by Orogun01

[HoonDing]

I'd like some impressions myself. I'm still on the fence about getting it or not... I'm rather sick of DA's combat system & setting, hence not really looking forward to fighting Epic Gnolls Genlocks.

 

Also, judging from the trailers characters didn't seem very interesting. Not to mention, there are no romances.

 

EDIT: well, if patch 1.03 is required, I guess that settles it.

Edited March 14, 2010 by virumor

[Volourn]

"The Codex says it sucks donkey ballz, but then again, it's the Codex...."

 

Not the Codex. One guy who didn't critit anything but just spammed nonsense.

 

 

"Also, judging from the trailers characters didn't seem very interesting."

 

Judging them based about a minutish of vid? No characetr would be interesting in that amount of time. Afterall, that's what people claimed about the ME2 companions til they played the game. *shrug*

 

 

 

" I'm still on the fence about getting it or not... I'm rather sick of DA's combat system & setting, hence not really looking forward to fighting Epic Gnolls Genlocks."

 

Then get off the fence, and don't buy it. The combat system and setting have not changed. You are wasting your time if you do buy it.

 

Now genlocks are gnolls? But... but, but... I thought darkspawn were orcs? Even ogre and broodmother darkspawn are orcs! Or so people like Grom tell me! HAHA!

Edited March 14, 2010 by Volourn

[Sannom]

Now genlocks are gnolls? But... but, but... I thought darkspawn were orcs? Even ogre and broodmother darkspawn are orcs! Or so people like Grom tell me! HAHA!

 

I think you may have missed a reference to NWN 2 there... and to the legions of epic level gnolls in MotB. Some people were upset about that.

 

And yes, Darkspawn are basically orcs/lizardmen/gnolls/goblins/kobolds, well you know, the regular evil horde of doom With their hired muscle giants/ogres.

[Walsingham]

I have to say I love those trailers. I just watched a few, and it brought back all the cool stuff I did in the original campaign. I'm totally getting this once I save up some cash.