The Nature of RPGs

[Purkake]

We should probably differentiate between C&C that comes from gameplay and only affects gameplay and the kind that affects the story.

 

I think the various Silent Hill games have different endings dependent on your actions in the game.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Purkake

[Raithe]

Thereby firmly linking the need for a story to rpg's...

 

(although to be fair, Alpha Centauri did link things to a shallow storyline.. hm, and so did Alien Legacy but that's a fairly ancient game now)

[Purkake]

Ok, so far we have C&C, customization(stats), a story and a main character.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Purkake

[Raithe]

Ok, so far we have C&C, customization(stats), a story and a main character.

 

I'd agree with those.

 

Hm, and I think it's the C&C within the storyline , and how other characters react to you that make me feel that Alpha Protocol is much more an rpg then anything else.

 

Or at least, the C&C that's supposed to be within it. For the thread derailment : dang it, I really want to try it out and see if it's really as c&c as they say it is...

[Purkake]

Can anyone think of an RPG without a main character or with multiple main characters(in the same playthrough)?

 

I guess an RPG without a story would be a roguelike.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Purkake

[RPGmasterBoo]

RPG traits are not unique or confined to the genre in any way. Especially today when introducing certain RPG trademarks is common in every genre. The pure DnD deal (or its stat heavy copycats) from before was diluted, and basically whats left is to weigh traditional RPG stuff against the presence of other genres in any game.

From there it boils down to what's basically half balancing and half opinion.

 

 

After the gold box games died, stat heavy turn based dungeon crawlers practically died with them. There was always some other stuff being released but the core went with that srting of DnD titles.

 

Then Fallout and Baldurs Gate came along, with BG being a more successful formula, mostly because it took its mechanics from the rising real time strategy genre, and was more exciting to play for most people. Openly turn based RPGs games slowly became obscure while the Infinity engine spawned several successful games.

 

Even the supposedly complex IE games were later simplified in terms of mechanics to the level set by Diablo years ago, with KOTOR, NWN not being significantly more complex to play. Today its the consoles pulling the strings which boils the IE formula down to the level of action games.

 

Basically an RPG is what passes for one among gamers at the time. The people who played the original Pool of Radiance and such, and without knowing how things developed later would most probably not recognize any modern RPG for what it is save perhaps DA. And even that is questionable.

The genre evolves:

 

stat heavy dungeon crawlers > (birth of action RPGs with Diablo) > Infinity engine - BG (half RTS, half traditional dungeon crawler) > Infinity engine becomes more story driven BGII, PST, Tob while at the same time retaining much of the dungeon crawling (ID series) > mechanics simplified even more: NWN, KOTOR, story remains, choices become more pronounced> action RPG's practically push the stats and gameplay complexity out of RPG: JE, ME, ME2, all thats left is the story and C&Cs

 

That's just Bioware used as a case study. All the while the action RPG continues to be a viable formula, (Bethesda's work included, also becomes more action oriented) with diablo clones practically conquering everything through WoW. Troika kicks the bucket, Black Isle does and basically all that's left of what most people consider traditional RPG's is Bioware. So far they only return to the formula once, with DA and its too early to tell where its going.

 

All this just means one thing: the genre evolves at a faster pace than you can form categories for it. The other thing is that its a balancing game, there has to be enough basic components for something to be considered an RPG. How much is that? That's a bit vague I'm afraid.

[Raithe]

Yup, I can agree to a lot of what Boo says.

 

Personally I enjoyed the Eye of the Beholder games at the time, although I didn't really consider them crpgs. More that it was a fun adaption of the D&D I played with my friends.

 

I don't like Diablo, and most of those styles of games, because they come down to combat grind with very little in the way of.. interactive storyline. I consider them inspired by rpgs... but I don't really think stat advancement and a few elves and orcs make for an rpg by themselves.

[Purkake]

RPG traits are not unique or confined to the genre in any way.

Neither are most other genre's traits. I'm just trying to see if there is a single trait or a combination of traits that is present in every RPG, we might very well conclude that "RPG" is an outdated term and has no meaning in today's market.

The other thing is that its a balancing game, there has to be enough basic components for something to be considered an RPG. How much is that? That's a bit vague I'm afraid.

Finding that out is the point of this thread.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Its impossible. A part is in the way the game is marketed, a part in the common opinion of people who play it, a part in the game itself. An RPG is what people in general accept as such.

 

Most of us here are the Bioware, Black Isle, Interplay, Troika school of RPG's thus most of us look at it from that perspective.

[Raithe]

Well putting the question here might cut down on some of the thread derailment of "what is a crpg" on the assorted DA and ME2 threads..

 

Maybe.

 

If we're lucky.

 

Very lucky.

 

 

That and it might produce some interesting exchange of ideas rather then venting linked to specific current games.

[Purkake]

@Boo: I'm sure most of you have seen and/or played a JRPG and something Diablo-like at least once. It would be great to have a wide variety of views, but I have to work with what I've got.

 

As I said in the disclaimer, I'm not trying to establish an universal truth, I'm just getting people's opinions and having a general discussion about RPGs.

 

You're welcome to add your opinion.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Purkake

[Monte Carlo]

LOL they've been having this discussion in the pen & paper RPG world since the Year Dot.

 

After rules-heavy systems heavily influenced by hex-based wargames (Chainmail, OD&D to Chivalry & Sorcery... Bushido FFS) came games like FUDGE which were simple story-telling systems with very loose mechanics. Trading card games came out of RPGs. Computer games came out of RPGs... so I'd say look at the source material.

 

A role-playing game is one where you take on the role of a single character within a story controlled / referee'd by a third party (be it a games master or a computer). Everything else is gravy. Doom could be considered a RPG if you want to apply that test. 'RPG' lite (Deus Ex, ME etc) came to mean that an action game took on story elements and character progression beyond that of the shooter genre... we all know the story and the arguments.

 

Personally, I'm a grognard, a backwoodsman and a snob. A RPG needs stats, NPCs, inventory, tactical combat, loot, a compelling story and rust monsters and / or half tracks. Everything else is just a shooter or a dumbass MMO.

 

Cheers

MC

[jjc]

You can look at the original D&D and see two major components: the storytelling and the stats/system. There are variations within D&D itself that stop you from clearly declaring one as dominant over the other. "D&D" can mean a long campaign played out over a number of sessions with a focus on roleplaying and the experience of an interactive, improvised story. "D&D" can mean a low-level OD&D dungeon crawl that's more to do with fighting monsters, collecting treasure, and dying in traps.

 

I think the variety of different games you can get as a result of focusing on either the interactive story or stat development (or both at once) is so great that the term "RPG" is useful mostly as a very broad label. It's essential in marketing. You advertise a game as an "RPG" so that fans of games that have been called "RPGs" take notice. It's up to them to investigate further and find out if they and the developer actually have the same kind of game in mind. Fallout is an RPG. Dragon Quest is an RPG. It's not really different from saying that Super Mario Brothers and Halo are both "action" games.

[Purkake]

So do you think RPG as a label has lost it's meaning? Should we be using some other term to describe them because of the mixing and matching of elements from different genres?

[Monte Carlo]

No I don't think the term RPG is meaningless, it's just that the genre has become extremely broad. Within that there remain identifiable elements that still make it what it is.

 

After all, we all know what we mean when we say 'Family Saloon Car' right? But it might have fuel injection, or be a quasi-SUV or a four-wheel drive or a fabulous new convertible roof...

 

But it's still a car big enough to get two kids, a dog and a weeks shopping into and not break the bank when you fill it with petrol... that's the meat and potatoes.

 

Character, story and progression are the same thing for the RPG.

[Wrath of Dagon]

What would be an example of a game with C&C that wasn't an RPG?

 

Hm, Civilization, Masters of Orion, Alpha Centuari maybe?

 

There are lots of choices and consequences you make within those sorts of strategy / exploration / research type games. They don't always have much story to them (although AC did make a nice effort), but they definitely have a wide open ability to choose as you wish and then have consequences to deal with from every choice.

But you are not playing a character, are you? The lack of the PC is what makes a strategy game not an RPG, although there's plenty of C&C of course.

[Raithe]

What would be an example of a game with C&C that wasn't an RPG?

 

Hm, Civilization, Masters of Orion, Alpha Centuari maybe?

 

There are lots of choices and consequences you make within those sorts of strategy / exploration / research type games. They don't always have much story to them (although AC did make a nice effort), but they definitely have a wide open ability to choose as you wish and then have consequences to deal with from every choice.

But you are not playing a character, are you? The lack of the PC is what makes a strategy game not an RPG, although there's plenty of C&C of course.

 

On a certain level you do have a "pc" .. Alpha Centauri you picked a leader and the type of ideology they had.. customising the benefits of your "group" and deciding what approach you'd take to events..

 

I wouldn't call it an rpg.. but it has certain fuzzy elements. Especially if you look at it from the right angle with a squint

[Deadly_Nightshade]

But you are not playing a character, are you?

 

In most, if not all, of those games -it's been awhile so I cannot remember if the examples were this way- you did get a "character" - you are King XYZ, the leader of the great nation of ABC.

 

[jjc]

So do you think RPG as a label has lost it's meaning? Should we be using some other term to describe them because of the mixing and matching of elements from different genres?

I think any other label that could be invented would be similarly limited in its usefulness. I also think the only way a new label would gain traction at this time would be if a game publisher decided they wanted one to help distinguish themselves from the competition and then aggressively marketed a (successful) game using that phrase. Calling a game an "RPG" is fine, but it's just a means to begin a more detailed discussion about what the game does.

[Wrath of Dagon]

But you are not playing a character, are you?

 

In most, if not all, of those games -it's been awhile so I cannot remember if the examples were this way- you did get a "character" - you are King XYZ, the leader of the great nation of ABC.

 

But that's probably too abstracted to really be considered a PC.

[Gorth]

Pac-Man... the original crpg

 

You have a protagonist, a labyrinth full of treasure, powerful loot that enables you to overcome otherwise unbeatable enemies, bonus treasures for the skilled players

 

Oh yeah, and constantly respawning enemies, endless grind, questionable level layout, unbalanced encounters, more combat than any other ingame world interaction etc. Yes, must be a contemporary crpg

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Choices in terms of story, I guess.

[entrerix]

Pac-Man... the original crpg

 

You have a protagonist, a labyrinth full of treasure, powerful loot that enables you to overcome otherwise unbeatable enemies, bonus treasures for the skilled players

 

Oh yeah, and constantly respawning enemies, endless grind, questionable level layout, unbalanced encounters, more combat than any other ingame world interaction etc. Yes, must be a contemporary crpg

 

epic troll lol

[Orogun01]

Lest this thread be derailed by trolling let's be back on the subject.

 

IMO is all about number crunching, but the label RPG has grown wider and does include elements such as storytelling. But as it was originally conceived was to port Pnp into a PC game.

[Purkake]

Someone brought up player skill vs character skill back in the ME2 thread. I can kind of see that, but that line is pretty blurry by now as well.