Alternate History

[Oerwinde]

So I've been pretty much obsessed for the last few months with this: Alternate History Wiki

 

Mostly been working on the 1983: Doomsday timeline, which has expanded nicely, but there are quite a few good timelines and more than a few terrible ones(such as the Vegetarian World, in which the world is all awesome and peaceful and theres no bad TV because everyone is vegan or vegetarian). Anyway, I figured some people here might find it interesting. Alternate history is a genre that is lacking love ever since the end of season 2 of Sliders.

Edited January 4, 2010 by Oerwinde

[Niten_Ryu]

I used to like alternate histories when I was younger but big events like full scale nuclear war are too hard to speculate. Way too many variables and it makes every story just full fantasy. Best alternate future stories are about small events and only about very limited timeframe.

[Oerwinde]

What I like about alternate history is how a single point of diversion can lead to a nearly infinite number of results. For instance, theres one timeline on there where Franz Ferdinand wasn't assassinated, and WW1 didn't happen. So Britain became some sort of crazy fascist warmongering nation and invaded the US in the 60s.

[jaguars4ever]

I'm real happy for you Oerwinde and Imma let you finish, but Sliders is the best alternate history show of all time!

[lord of flies]

What I like about alternate history is how a single point of diversion can lead to a nearly infinite number of results. For instance, theres one timeline on there where Franz Ferdinand wasn't assassinated, and WW1 didn't happen. So Britain became some sort of crazy fascist warmongering nation and invaded the US in the 60s.

That's ridiculous.

 

If Franz Ferdinand doesn't die, WW1 will just start a couple years later. Everybody was building up for The Big One from 1908 onward. The only way to avoid the Great War is to prevent the series of alliances that birthed it, perhaps by avoiding German unification or the annexation of Alsace-Lorraine. Furthermore, the probability that Britain would ever attempt to mount a invasion of the United States is absurdly low. Additionally, without the political destabilization of the Great War, fascism would probably be strangled in its cradle.

 

History is a complex tapestry and you're ****ting all over it with your absurdities.

 

A much better, more plausible timeline is one that's not done yet, titled "Reds: A Revolutionary Timeline," where McKinley isn't assassinated, the Progressive movement doesn't succeed in the two big parties, the Socialists absorb the Progressives and maintain control over northern class conflict, the left wing of the Socialists maintains control over party leadership and the Great War seriously radicalizes a good chunk of American soldiers due to earlier entry. It all culminates when the now mainstream Worker's Party (a rebranded Socialist Party and member of the Comintern) succeeds at overthrowing the United States government with the Red Army (a rebranded Bonus Army) under Patton.

[Oerwinde]

What I like about alternate history is how a single point of diversion can lead to a nearly infinite number of results. For instance, theres one timeline on there where Franz Ferdinand wasn't assassinated, and WW1 didn't happen. So Britain became some sort of crazy fascist warmongering nation and invaded the US in the 60s.

That's ridiculous.

 

If Franz Ferdinand doesn't die, WW1 will just start a couple years later. Everybody was building up for The Big One from 1908 onward. The only way to avoid the Great War is to prevent the series of alliances that birthed it, perhaps by avoiding German unification or the annexation of Alsace-Lorraine. Furthermore, the probability that Britain would ever attempt to mount a invasion of the United States is absurdly low. Additionally, without the political destabilization of the Great War, fascism would probably be strangled in its cradle.

 

History is a complex tapestry and you're ****ting all over it with your absurdities.

 

A much better, more plausible timeline is one that's not done yet, titled "Reds: A Revolutionary Timeline," where McKinley isn't assassinated, the Progressive movement doesn't succeed in the two big parties, the Socialists absorb the Progressives and maintain control over northern class conflict, the left wing of the Socialists maintains control over party leadership and the Great War seriously radicalizes a good chunk of American soldiers due to earlier entry. It all culminates when the now mainstream Worker's Party (a rebranded Socialist Party and member of the Comintern) succeeds at overthrowing the United States government with the Red Army (a rebranded Bonus Army) under Patton.

 

Theres a ton of awful timelines. One of the biggest, most detailed has an independent winning the 2000 presidential election and eventually leads to the US with crazy space mining leading to a collapse of all world economies except the US so Mexico and Canada seek annexation by the US. The guy fails at economics forever, not only would the costs of space mining outweigh the benefits, even if the costs weren't an issue, having a limitless supply of resources would only devalue those resources to the point where it wouldn't be financially viable to maintain production. If production was maintained it would result in lower manufacturing costs due to drasticly lowered prices on raw materials, which in turn would lead to both a lower price on the finished product, and an increase in consumer consumption due to higher availability and lower prices leading to a stronger economy rather than a collapsed one.

 

But seriously: Space mining because Bush wasn't elected in 2000.

 

Its a combination of the fascinating and the absurd that makes me love alternate history.

[Guard Dog]

I haven't checked out the web site yet but I've got to agree with LoF (can you imagine that?) about WWI. In those days Europe was like a wolf pack with too many wolves in it. The only thing that might have changed would be who fought with who and when. The colonial disputes, strangulation of trade, etc would still be the central cause. The assasination was just the match that lit the powder. The powder was still there without it. What might have changed is the US involvement. The US was far more isolationist back then, and far less developed than Europe. Had the Zimmeman Incident not happened I believe the Lusitania would not have been enough for Congress to give Wilson a Declaration of War. If the US had remained neutral the outcome would have been the same, the isolationists would have been proven right, and the US Military would have missed out on 20 years of advancement and improvment. It would have made the US less likely to involve itself in WW2 and far less capable when it did. That would have made a big change in history.

[Aristes]

I think alternate history is tons of fun. Really interesting conversations come out of the sheer speculation.

 

I don't agree with Guard Dog and Lord of Flies in that it was completely and utterly inevitable. I do think it was virtually impossible to avoid World War One, but that's because it's hard to imagine a world in which it did not occur. If it hadn't occured, it would have been difficult to imagine a world in which something so horrible had actually happened. Think of it this way, if we had endured a nulcear war in the 1980s, then it would have been hard to believe war wasn't inevitable. Hell, a lot of folks were convinced that we would end up in a nuclear war with the Soviet Union.

 

Counterfactual history is wonderful for discussion, but anything beyond immediate proximity is probably worthless as an academic endeavor. It's not even possible to come to any real consensus about soomething as immediate as the bombing of a Nagasaki and Hiroshima in relation to the ending of World War Two, let alone something as complex as a world in which World War One never took place. I completely agree with both GD and LoF in regards to the immediate cause of Franz Ferdinand's assassination. With so much tinder and so many sparks, taking out just one would not have been enough. There were certainly enough immediate causes waiting in the wings to set off the event that the absence of any one would not have been sufficient to guarantee peace.

 

How the world would look had any one particular event not taken place is anyone's guess, but it is almost certainly not exactly what anyone would imagine.

[Killian Kalthorne]

Personally I would like to have seen an alternative history in which the native populations of the Americas were mostly immune to the diseases that the European explorers brought, and was comparable in technology. Have the Aztecs invade Spain!

[Monte Carlo]

Could somebody please dig up the counter-factual history thread from 2009?

 

Current favourite* --- counter-factuals concerning the weather. May 1944. The RAF meterological department fails to predict a horrible stormfront brewing in the Atlantic. The D-Day Armada is seriously compromised: only 50% of the fleet makes the beaches, the other half is either sunk, turns back to England or is blown towards the Pas De Calais where it is carved up by E-Boats and the Luftwaffe.

 

On the beaches the Allies are torn to pieces and a disaster that makes Dunkirk look like a minor fender-bender ensues. At Camp 'X' in SW London, Eisenhower resigns and WW2 looks to stretch into 1946 or even 1947. The already fractious military relations between the British and US starts to break down. A feeble attempt to switch the second front to Italy meets with disaster on the Gothic Line as dozens of Panzer divisions are switched from France to the Appennines. The Russian summer offensive is blunted after Kursk. They are looking at renewing the offensive in the Spring of 1945: The well-equipped divisions that would have been wasted in the Ardennes in December 1944 are instead re-fitted, rested and sent east. The Luftwaffe manages to scrape together enough resources to blunt the Allied bombing offensives, and V2 rockets rain down on London from bases in Holland.

 

Meanwhile, Stalin fumes. Rumours of a negotiated peace with Hitler circulate. The USA manifestly refuses to accept anything else than complete victory. There is no Tehran conference.

 

Then, in the late summer of 1945 Winston Churchill, during a briefing on The Manhattan Project asks for Berlin to be the subject of an atomic bombing raid in tandem with Japan. He finally manages to convince the USA that Stalin is a threat and that such a move kills two birds with one stone... Enigma intercepts suggest that the Germans are working towards completing their atomic weaponry project with advanced rocket technology as are the Soviets.

 

Three atomic weapons are dropped on Berlin. Hitler and the vast majority of the Nazi and OKW high command die in the scorching ashes of the capital. When a new government promises resistance another four are dropped on key strategic German population and industrial centres. It is a tragedy of epic proportions... Germany surrenders, the Soviet army takes Silesia and what was Prussia but is unable to advance on the post-apocalyptic wasteland to the West.

 

That's scary, and it's not an outrageous counter-factual by any stretch of the imagination and it was all down to the weather guy!

 

Cheers

MC

 

* Shamelessly ripped in part from What If? 2

[Oner]

I'm real happy for you Oerwinde and Imma let you finish, but Sliders is the best alternate history show of all time!

Isn't that Win By Default? Besidef only John-Rys Davis (did I spell that right?) and whatzizname... the token black guy were cool.

[Walsingham]

On the beaches the Allies are torn to pieces and a disaster that makes Dunkirk look like a minor fender-bender ensues. At Camp 'X' in SW London, Eisenhower resigns and WW2 looks to stretch into 1946 or even 1947. The already fractious military relations between the British and US starts to break down. A feeble attempt to switch the second front to Italy meets with disaster on the Gothic Line as dozens of Panzer divisions are switched from France to the Appennines.

 

I see what you mean about pushing on the Italian front, but then if the Germans HAD gone on the offensive this would have suited us far far better than the defensive warfare they resorted to. Had they been required to push over mountains like we were I suspect they'd have been carved up royally.

 

However, without the Allies in France I don't think it would have halted the advance of the Red Army. We'd have just had a Red Europe, and we'd all be speaking LoF.

[Rostere]

However, without the Allies in France I don't think it would have halted the advance of the Red Army. We'd have just had a Red Europe, and we'd all be speaking LoF.

 

This.

 

However, if the SU had not recieved any monetary or material aid from the allies and Hitler had prepared for winter warfare, things might have looked different.

[Pope]

Personally I would like to have seen an alternative history in which the native populations of the Americas were mostly immune to the diseases that the European explorers brought, and was comparable in technology. Have the Aztecs invade Spain!

Count me in for this one. We'd all be eating mushrooms today, and there'd be one mad party on December 20th, 2012.

Edited January 4, 2010 by Pope

[Walsingham]

However, without the Allies in France I don't think it would have halted the advance of the Red Army. We'd have just had a Red Europe, and we'd all be speaking LoF.

 

This.

 

However, if the SU had not recieved any monetary or material aid from the allies and Hitler had prepared for winter warfare, things might have looked different.

I think a more relevant question might be why Hitler backed Mussolini. Without the diversion of resources represented by North Africa the wehrmacht would have had use of a couple of divisions, plus one of their best operational generals.

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

What about the one where Einstein makes a time machine to go assassinate Hitler before WW2 and then the US/USSR start waging war?

[Killian Kalthorne]

Personally I would like to have seen an alternative history in which the native populations of the Americas were mostly immune to the diseases that the European explorers brought, and was comparable in technology. Have the Aztecs invade Spain!

Count me in for this one. We'd all be eating mushrooms today, and there'd be one mad party on December 20th, 2012.

 

That's the Mayans, not the Aztecs. On days of celebration we would be ripping the hearts out of our enemies, the basketball captain of the losing side in the NBA playoffs would be ritually murdered.

[Oerwinde]

Personally I would like to have seen an alternative history in which the native populations of the Americas were mostly immune to the diseases that the European explorers brought, and was comparable in technology. Have the Aztecs invade Spain!

 

http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Aztec_Empire

[Niten_Ryu]

What I like about alternate history is how a single point of diversion can lead to a nearly infinite number of results. For instance, theres one timeline on there where Franz Ferdinand wasn't assassinated, and WW1 didn't happen.

 

This is what I'm talking about. You get almost infinine number of results, but story can still go horrible wrong if writer don't have excellent knowledge of history. Then again, if writer is poster child of some far out theory why something happend (there's tons of historians who have very weird ideas about WW1 and WW2 ), story can still go wrong because majority of the readers won't accept writers orginal arguments (no matter if those are correct or not).

 

Franz Ferdinand is one of those things. I think majority of the researchers accept the possibility that WW1 would have happend anyway, even without the assassination.

[Calax]

I do remember there being a game where they took ww1 and tried to extend it into the 1980's with it being put on the stock market, trench warfare with riot guns and helicopters...

[Darth InSidious]

If Franz Ferdinand doesn't die, WW1 will just start a couple years later. Everybody was building up for The Big One from 1908 onward.

Given the successes of von Moltke in the Austro-Prussian and Franco-Prussian wars, I'd say that the build-up was more like from 1880 onwards.

 

The only way to avoid the Great War is to prevent the series of alliances that birthed it, perhaps by avoiding German unification or the annexation of Alsace-Lorraine.

Given the trends of warfare from 1792 onward, I'd have thought killing Napoleon would have been more of a hammer-blow to the inception of WWI.

 

Furthermore, the probability that Britain would ever attempt to mount a invasion of the United States is absurdly low.

Perhaps. We did try it in, IIRC, 1812. It went pretty disastrously, although there were, I'm informed, plans for a Canadian invasion up until 1945.

 

History is a complex tapestry and you're ****ting all over it with your absurdities.

Agreed.

 

But seriously: Space mining because Bush wasn't elected in 2000.

Hey, on another forum I visit, there used to be a guy who claimed that but for the baleful influence of religion, we'd be exploring the galaxy in the Starship Enterprise by now. Literally.

 

He also insisted that lightsabers were entirely plausible by reference to... quantum states, or some ****. I forget, but he was hilariously eccentric. This was before we got on to his opinion on how the banks were secretly running the world... and his multi-coloured posting. I was sadface when he got himself banned.

[Pope]

Personally I would like to have seen an alternative history in which the native populations of the Americas were mostly immune to the diseases that the European explorers brought, and was comparable in technology. Have the Aztecs invade Spain!

Count me in for this one. We'd all be eating mushrooms today, and there'd be one mad party on December 20th, 2012.

 

That's the Mayans, not the Aztecs.

 

Not the mushroom part though.

[Oerwinde]

Hey, on another forum I visit, there used to be a guy who claimed that but for the baleful influence of religion, we'd be exploring the galaxy in the Starship Enterprise by now. Literally.

 

He also insisted that lightsabers were entirely plausible by reference to... quantum states, or some ****. I forget, but he was hilariously eccentric. This was before we got on to his opinion on how the banks were secretly running the world... and his multi-coloured posting. I was sadface when he got himself banned.

 

Well without religion its quite likely the Dark Ages wouldn't have happened, and technology possibly would be much more advanced. Or it could have turned out exactly the same.

[Pidesco]

No.

[Monte Carlo]

Yeah. I read a quite well-reasoned theory once that, had the Roman Empire not imploded when it did, and it's technological progress continued apace then the Space Legions would be storming Alpha Centauri by the 1700's.

 

Of course, this is predicated on a Roman industrial revolution and a thousand of years of world peace.

 

Hmmm.