Dragon Age discussion

[Stephen Amber]

The point is that 'mages being overpowered wawawa' is one of the ludicrous arguments I've ever heard about fantasy games. Damn, it's magic, it better be 'overpowered'.

 

The classic pnp argument being since they start out the weakest they can end up the strongest. Which really doesn't mean much in modern crpgs with re-loads, and 100 different saved games. Some of the old school dm's could be pretty anal about characters and death, allowing some sort of miraculous resurrection or demanding a re-rolled character, at his whim. A certain amount of attrition was assumed in the pnp game, with those rising to arch-magi status being relatively rare. And the raw amount of game time often precluded such lofty levels. Don't think we ever got beyond the low teens, after mega hours and several published modules. But that's ok, as the game play is better than at high to epic levels I think. Playing through Motb right now, and most of the time is spent watching my destruction crew go to work...

 

Point being, high level magic is not so much a flaw inherent to the system, it's more of a flawed conversion to the crpg world.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Judging by the content I have a suspicion this project was put on hold at some point. There's too little to see for 6 years of work.

I think it was slowed down some, but not completely put on hold. For instance, the writers were always there it seems. But yeah, what the hell were they doing for six years (actually there's almost infinite amount of rumours and party banter you can prompt, so that must be where all the efforts went). Edited February 12, 2010 by Wrath of Dagon

[RPGmasterBoo]

The "everything must be voice acted" deal is such a waste of resources. Not to mention how hard it is to keep the quality consistent.

[Orogun01]

The "everything must be voice acted" deal is such a waste of resources. Not to mention how hard it is to keep the quality consistent.

But it feels nice to hear them talk instead of reading through faceless lines of dialog. Besides games need VO otherwise Claudia Black wouldn't have a job.

[Wrath of Dagon]

There are tons of unnecessary voice acting, long, boring conversations with every Tom, ****, and Harry, party members whining about their childhoods, party banter, etc. Take a few of the most interesting entries from the Codex, some of the boring voice acting, part of the unending dungeons and combat, and make a few really interesting quests about the setting, instead of just having to read about it.

Edited February 12, 2010 by Wrath of Dagon

[ramza]

So, how is the game? Do you think someone like me (someone who rates BG2 as the best rpg ever made) will appreciate it?

 

What prevents me from buying it is that I am kinda sick and tired of Bio's storytelling and tedious combat. I have heard DA is somewhat similar to ME: cinematics, plenty of dialogs and cut-scenes, heavy on combat, etc. Mass effect hasn't convinced me as a game (I think of it more as an interactive movie than a game) and that's what worries me about DA. The last Bio game I ever played was Jade Empire and I had already noticed back then the new direction Bio games started to take (much emphasis immature "maturity", cinematic storytelling and non-rpg combat). I am not sure I like the way Bio games have turned into and I do prefer the old-school bio games.

 

People also say that DA has that old-school feel from the older games but I am not sure how much I will like it. To tell the truth, I am also tired of games where you just click on a target, watch your characters fight for 2 minutes until they kill their enemy and then repeat the process.

[Tigranes]

Do you think someone like me (someone who rates BG2 as the best rpg ever made) will appreciate it?

 

From someone who rates BG2 as the most fun RPG ever and replayed it over a dozen times, it's the best and closest thing to BG2 since the advent of 3D. So worth getting.

 

It's definitely more cinematic, and such, but it's not much easier than BG2 I think. If you skip past some of the more inane dialogue you shouldn't mind too much.

[Spider]

And you definitely can't click and wait for two minutes, at least not on harder difficulties.

[Guest Slinky]

Do you think someone like me (someone who rates BG2 as the best rpg ever made) will appreciate it?

From someone who rates BG2 as the most fun RPG ever and replayed it over a dozen times, it's the best and closest thing to BG2 since the advent of 3D. So worth getting.

It's easy to fiqure out will you like DA by answering to two questions: Do you really like party based combat? Do you like grinding? If your answers are yes and yes, then you most likely like the game.

 

For the record, I really like BG2 still today, but I find DA very, very tedious. In my eyes it's not much more than a overlong grindfest.

[Sand]

I don't see why people compare DA to BG2. I think it is a more fair comparison to compare it to BG1. Compare DA2 to BG2.

[ramza]

I definitely like party based combat and I hate grinding, but almost every game has this feature so I can live with it.

My main issue is that DA had some kind of MMORPG feel to it (I dunno, maybe because of the interface) in the same way Drakensang did. In fact, I found Drakensang to be horrendous and totally unplayable because of the way you moved around the screen and the combat interface. From screenshots and videos, I see many similarities between the way DA and Drakensang play, except DA's story is definitely more fleshed out.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Do you think someone like me (someone who rates BG2 as the best rpg ever made) will appreciate it?

 

From someone who rates BG2 as the most fun RPG ever and replayed it over a dozen times, it's the best and closest thing to BG2 since the advent of 3D. So worth getting.

 

 

I am in complete disagreement.

 

Though that depends on what ramza actually liked about BGII.

 

The combat can be challenging and fun enough, but its terribly paced, and becomes tedious.

 

I'd rarely condemn a game before playing it through, but Dragon Age is not as seems to be more apparent by the minute - a spiritual sequel to BGII. In fact its a spiritual sequel in the exact same way Neverwinter Nights 2 was. It takes the gameplay, refines some concepts of it, wraps it up in a thoroughly generic LotR type story throws in more grind and tedium in quests than is healthy... and thats it.

 

Really, Dragon Age is Neverwinter Nights 3 particularly in the way your Avatar is little more than a blank slate adventurer, not woven into the plot very much and out to stop the *yawn* ancient evil.

 

In retrospect, gameplay issues aside, I think the only way to deliver a BGII experience is for the plot to be personal.

Edited February 12, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Hurlshort]

If the grind is really bothering you, just drop the difficulty to easy. It makes the combat much faster and then you can just focus on the story aspects.

[Starwars]

So, how is the game? Do you think someone like me (someone who rates BG2 as the best rpg ever made) will appreciate it?

 

What prevents me from buying it is that I am kinda sick and tired of Bio's storytelling and tedious combat. I have heard DA is somewhat similar to ME: cinematics, plenty of dialogs and cut-scenes, heavy on combat, etc. Mass effect hasn't convinced me as a game (I think of it more as an interactive movie than a game) and that's what worries me about DA. The last Bio game I ever played was Jade Empire and I had already noticed back then the new direction Bio games started to take (much emphasis immature "maturity", cinematic storytelling and non-rpg combat). I am not sure I like the way Bio games have turned into and I do prefer the old-school bio games.

 

People also say that DA has that old-school feel from the older games but I am not sure how much I will like it. To tell the truth, I am also tired of games where you just click on a target, watch your characters fight for 2 minutes until they kill their enemy and then repeat the process.

 

I just finished my second playthrough, and in my mind it's Bioware's best by far. But, it would depend a bit just what parts of BG2 you like that make you rate it so high. I'm not sure if I'd rate the combat better than the BGs overall, but it is quite close. The main difference is that a lot of the encounters are a bit uninspired and repetetive. The game would've done well to cut down a bit on encounters overall and also to have more monsters in general. But yep, on Hard, a lot of the battles are very satisfying (far more so than NWN, KOTOR, JE and ME). It requires me to be active, and switching between characters and issuing specific orders. Much like the IE games.

 

It is absolutely very heavy on dialogues/cut-scenes. But, I will say that while I usually get bored to tears with Biowares storytelling, there is a lot of nice stuff in DA. The overall premise is a bit bland but there is a lot of interesting lore and politics to be found. It's also a big game.

 

Finally, the place where DA stomps the crap out BG are the choices. There are a great many variations on how things can end up, both in how things end immediately after the game ends and in the long term side of things (presented as an ending slide a'la the Fallouts). The origins also add a lot of flair to the game. They vary a bit, but I will say that I was very impressed with a choice I got this time around when playing a Human Noble. It made the pretty different and is unique to that origin.

 

All in all, it's hard to compare it in terms of quality to the BGs (I always thought they were the best Bioware had to offer, but still not great). Gameplay-wise, it's pretty similar in many ways. In terms of story and all that, it's closer to Biowares later game in the sense that it's more cinematic and all that. But I just feel DA did it so much better overall.

[RPGmasterBoo]

I don't see why people compare DA to BG2. I think it is a more fair comparison to compare it to BG1. Compare DA2 to BG2.

 

No. They had plenty of time, money and experience. Why should a new game be compared to their first and oldest game instead of their best?

 

Curiously DA is probably the worst paced game Bioware has ever made, and that was never previously a problem. Even the empty areas of BG1 weren't as tedious as non stop combat in DA.

[Oner]

I don't see why people compare DA to BG2. I think it is a more fair comparison to compare it to BG1. Compare DA2 to BG2.

 

No. They had plenty of time, money and experience. Why should a new game be compared to their first and oldest game instead of their best?

Because BG 1 is grindier I guess?

[Starwars]

Curiously DA is probably the worst paced game Bioware has ever made,

 

No, it's definitely not.

 

and that was never previously a problem

 

Yes, it definitely was.

 

Even the empty areas of BG1 weren't as tedious as non stop combat in DA.

 

Actually, they were.

 

R00fles!

[RPGmasterBoo]

The "everything must be voice acted" deal is such a waste of resources. Not to mention how hard it is to keep the quality consistent.

But it feels nice to hear them talk instead of reading through faceless lines of dialog. Besides games need VO otherwise Claudia Black wouldn't have a job.

 

It does feel nice sometimes but I'm under the impression that it costs a huge amount of money. Money that can be spent on other, more interesting content.

 

Dialog is faceless if its badly written.

Torment had almost nothing voiced, but every line was worth reading more than the voiced stuff in almost every other RPG is worth listening to.

Edited February 12, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[RPGmasterBoo]

Curiously DA is probably the worst paced game Bioware has ever made,

 

No, it's definitely not.

 

and that was never previously a problem

 

Yes, it definitely was.

 

Even the empty areas of BG1 weren't as tedious as non stop combat in DA.

 

Actually, they were.

 

R00fles!

 

Did Volo hack your account?

 

Because BG 1 is grindier I guess?

 

Anything for a more favorable outcome huh?

Edited February 12, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Sand]

New game engine, new setting, and new rules system. I am willing to give Bioware some slack. If you don't like Dragon Age so much, Boo-boy, don't play it. Don't get the DLCs or expansions. Heaven forbid, do ever get the sequel. Just go and keep playing the old games over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

[Sand]

Torment had almost nothing voiced, but every line was worth reading more than the voiced stuff in almost every other RPG is worth listening to.

 

Compared to the newer games Torment is boring and tedious.

[RPGmasterBoo]

None of it is particularly new but whatever. I haven't finished Dragon Age yet, but what I've seen so far is disappointing.

 

I've played most of the better RPG's multiple times. I'm hungry for new stuff. But that doesn't mean that I'll let obvious and unnecessary flaws slide. Besides I don't dislike all new games as is obvious from my sig.

 

Torment had almost nothing voiced, but every line was worth reading more than the voiced stuff in almost every other RPG is worth listening to.

 

Compared to the newer games Torment is boring and tedious.

 

If you have the IQ of a potted plant, yes.

Edited February 12, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Stephen Amber]

It does feel nice sometimes but I'm under the impression that it costs a huge amount of money. Money that can be spent on other, more interesting content.

 

The actor's guild/union, talent agencies, voice trainers and such have made it so. Hollywood's tentacles have fully inserted themselves into the lucrative gaming industry when it comes to voice acting work. Tentacles that try to suck and eke out as much revenue as they can...

[Meshugger]

QUOTE

DA showed me that Bioware has the potential to make DA2 to be this centurys BG2.

 

 

I think this is the big one. DA2 is surely going to use the same engine, just with souped up graphics. They are clearly using ME to get the short focused visceral cinematic experience down, so DA2 should have clearance to be a bigger, more sprawling RPG adventure. More classes and character options in general, more imaginative enemies and tactical set pieces (remember, BG enemies were just walking fleshbags compared to BG2's mage setpieces), and nwo the lore is in people's minds, to do more crazy things with it. I agree with starwars that the lore had good potential to be used for good quests and good quests.

 

 

I disagree. I'll elaborate on this later though, when I chew through more of the story - to make sure I'm not wrong.

 

I finished the forest.

 

So far there are some things I don't like:

 

-Too much grind in areas dedicated to the main quest line. Both the elven and mage recruitment missions felt overlong with too many mobs to go through.

-Too many random encounters against mobs, practically one per trip.

-Leliana. The character is too schizophrenic.

First she's an elite bard/assassin, then a nun/religious fanatic coupled with what appears to be Imoen's innocent demanour and a "neutral good" personality (she approves all my good actions). It simply doesn't work, the differences are too great to be beliveable.

 

-Too many generic quests. Especially the boards, but much of the other stuff as well.

-The PC's dialog options. Too short and to the point, reminds me of Shepard.

-Design of the forest.

 

What I like:

 

-The resolution of the Witherfang quest.

-Most of the game's joinable NPC's. They're mostly a bit on the dull and generic side but they're not emo, and they've got interesting storylines. Wynne in particular. I've yet to get the dwarf.

-The way you learn the Arcane Warrior or whatever that mage specialization is called.

-Design of the ruins in the forest.

 

The argument that mages are 'overpowered' in DA is hogwash since the same argument could be used for D&D mages (or heck any game with mages).

 

No. When my mage PC is doing all the slaughtering and all the rest are only used to keep the enemies busy something is not right. Spamming mana potions and dancing away allows my PC to dish out obscene amounts of damage, to the point where most of the other characters seem redundant. In DnD this power has limits, in the amount of spells you can dish out in an encounter. In DA you just have to keep potions handy and you can slaughter just about anything. And every spell is available, thus you don't have the possibility of being unprepared.

No other available class can even touch a mage, if he's played with at least a little effort and stocked up on potions.

 

-Also when you've gained sufficent levels, you always have a spell that has "cooled", and with enough potions you could more or less deliver an unending stream of spells.

 

You misunderstand my point. DA showed me, dispite its shortcomings, that Bioware can make a good RPG. As you said, make DA2's story more personal, give room for areas that have nothing to do with the main story having quests of their own. Give more variation when it comes to enemy encounters, upgrade the art design and color palette, work further on the game mechanics and you have a really great game. It has solid ground, it simply needs to lift off.

 

And who the hell called Vizima a city of bad design, in terms of scope and art again? That's just pure BS all the way through.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Perhaps you misunderstood my point. I don't think its an issue over whether Bioware can make a good RPG's. I find all their games to be good considering their high polish and a complete lack of competition from any other company. Only Obsidian and CDProjekt even bother making this type of game, and CDProjekt is still in its infancy. Obsidian's obligation to continue everyone else's work is dragging its creative potential down somewhat.

 

Overall I don't think anything they made after BGII is bad. Its a "flat line" of good titles achieved through taking their original Infinity engine formula, repeating it - and in general playing safe with everything else (stories, characters and settings).

 

Each title they release in this manner makes me more convinced that they aren't going to go beyond "good" and attempt exceptional. I don't know if Dragon Age 2 can be that improvement. For one it was obviously not planned as a trilogy with an overarching plot. And even if it was, DA isn't the greatest start. I just cant play another Jedi, Spectre, Grey Warden and save the world for the umpteenth time. If they ditch the entire Gray Warden deal, which practically forces the player to be a medieval cop and just do something else in the setting, (which by itself isn't bad) then perhaps.

 

Their saving grace I think is that they might be trapped by the rabid fan base on the Bio forums that applauds everything they make like a retarded child, and gets torches and pitchforks out if you suggest that "something is rotten...". Plus development costs have risen a lot since those days, and some unfortunate conventions (like voices for everyone, or pushing graphical limits) just keep adding to it. Plus they've got EA looking over their shoulder and you know how that finishes in the long run *cough* Westwood *cough*. So yes, they do have to play safe to a certain extent. I just dont know how much is necessity and how much is stale company policy.

 

On Vizima: Volo did.

Edited February 13, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo