What is your opinion on the Israeli-Palestenian conflict

[Gorgon]

Sections... please !

[Lare Kikkeli]

As I said, 10000 years of cultural evolution has made us to at least make these laws.

Yeah. After ten thousand years of cultural evolution (read: constant warring), we have finally learned... PR!!!

 

Don't be too impressed with modernity, though. People are still people.

 

I don't get this line of thinking. We've come a long way from for example 500 years ago. We've also come a long way from how we treated each other 100 years ago. We have very finely tuned systems to keep people safe from harm no matter where they are, and places where these systems fail are often the ones that are the most backward. People are people true, but we've changed a lot mentally from the apes we were in the dawn of our species, despite being physiologically identical. I don't think it's impossible for wars to become useless in the future, but it's a long and hard road to that. Still, we've made some giant leaps in that direction lately so I'm hopeful.

[213374U]

We've come a long way from for example 500 years ago. We've also come a long way from how we treated each other 100 years ago. We have very finely tuned systems to keep people safe from harm no matter where they are, and places where these systems fail are often the ones that are the most backward. People are people true, but we've changed a lot mentally from the apes we were in the dawn of our species, despite being physiologically identical.

No, we're simply better off - people and the world are by and large the same; we have simply gotten better at logistics and management. We have set up modern societies in a way that people have no reason to get up in arms and demand the head of the king (literally), or the invasion of some neighbour country, depending on how skilled the person in charge is at handling the mobs. People presently have their basic needs covered, and then some. If that arrangement fails, people revert to their violent, selfish selves. Morals and enlightenment are great, but they won't fill your stomach or protect you from cold.

 

It's curious, because you mention that yourself. Places that fail to meet the criteria for what is a "modern society" are notoriously backwards, and violence is rife. Er, why do you think that is? Because people there haven't had their eyes opened to the wonders of international legality, fundamental human rights and democracy? Or because, you know, there isn't enough food or power or land for everyone?

 

After thousands of years the #1 problem is still the same: resources are limited. Human populations always expand beyond what their resources would allow, and trouble follows.

 

So, where do you live that people have evolved beyond lying, cheating and murdering when they believe they can get away with it? I'd very much like to move there.

 

Edit:

we got the power, and we are not afraid to use it. (only a little)

I lol'ed Edited November 27, 2009 by 213374U

[Lare Kikkeli]

No, we're simply better off - people and the world are by and large the same; we have simply gotten better at logistics and management. We have set up modern societies in a way that people have no reason to get up in arms and demand the head of the king (literally), or the invasion of some neighbour country, depending on how skilled the person in charge is at handling the mobs. People presently have their basic needs covered, and then some. If that arrangement fails, people revert to their violent, selfish selves. Morals and enlightenment are great, but they won't fill your stomach or protect you from cold.

 

I'm not sure why you're saying this like it's a counter argument. 200 years ago animal rights were nonexistant. Now multiple countries are banning inhumane treatment of animals. Why is that? It's cultural evolution. Technological development has had a huge part in the development of our culture naturally. And in the future once we get fusion power or solar power to a level where it means unlimited energy we might see the end of poverty. Maybe. I realise this sounds like a bunch of hippie nonsense, but if you told a Finn 100 years ago that no one woul die of hunger and had unlimited access to health care 100 years in te future he'd laugh at you and then stab you for your clothes. So yeah we've come pretty far.

 

It's curious, because you mention that yourself. Places that fail to meet the criteria for what is a "modern society" are notoriously backwards, and violence is rife. Er, why do you think that is? Because people there haven't had their eyes opened to the wonders of international legality, fundamental human rights and democracy? Or because, you know, there isn't enough food or power or land for everyone?

Yes, this is what I meant. Places where people need to steal and kill for their basic needs are naturally the places that are the most backwards. If you read my post I talked nothing about solutions to this problem, just what the problem was. The solution naturally would be to eliminate the need for crime and violence as a way of staying alive, which we have done in the western world. Violence is a frowned upon in modern society, and while it's still a problem it's a hell of a lot smaller problem than 100 years ago.

 

 

After thousands of years the #1 problem is still the same: resources are limited. Human populations always expand beyond what their resources would allow, and trouble follows.

We have the basic knowledge and technology to have unlimited energy, and earths resources would last a lot longer if we used them more efficiently. Plus there's always space but I guess that's so far in the future for mankind that it's not a realistic solution to our current problems.

 

 

So, where do you live that people have evolved beyond lying, cheating and murdering when they believe they can get away with it? I'd very much like to move there.

 

I live in Finland, where no matter where I walk no matter how late I don't have to fear any harm. Sure we have violence, but it's so random and rare that I'm mor likely to get hit by a bus than get robbed or come to bodily harm otherwise.

[213374U]

I'm not sure why you're saying this like it's a counter argument.

Because it is. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean, all of that is simply an example that our skill at managing our resources has increased, decreasing social conflict accordingly. Humans are still fundamentally the same. You contend that somehow, humans have advanced not only culturally, but behaviorally as well, as if culture could change what we are. But on the other hand, we have thousands of years of history to suggest that as long as people's bellies are full and they are amused, all will be relatively well, but when that ends, **** will hit the fan.

 

Now go tell folks in Ciudad Ju

Edited November 27, 2009 by 213374U

[Lare Kikkeli]

Because it is. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean, all of that is simply an example that our skill at managing our resources has increased, decreasing social conflict accordingly. Humans are still fundamentally the same. You contend that somehow, humans have advanced not only culturally, but behaviorally as well, as if culture could change what we are. But on the other hand, we have thousands of years of history to suggest that as long as people's bellies are full and they are amused, all will be relatively well, but when that ends, **** will hit the fan.

 

Now go tell folks in Ciudad Ju

[Purkake]

Sections... please !

This.

 

For the love of puppies, rainbows and all the other nice things, use paragraphs!

[Walsingham]

Uriel, I'm genuinely interested in hearing what you have tos ay, but can you please do as my colleagues suggest and use paragraphs or something?

[213374U]

He's not afraid to use proper punctuation! (only a little)

[Killian Kalthorne]

Anyhoo, the only way for their to be peace in that region is through genocide. Neither side wants to compromise so the only other option is one side wiping out the other completely and utterly. A grim thought but that is the only way for lasting peace since they are hellbent on killing each other.

[Hurlshort]

Anyhoo, the only way for their to be peace in that region is through genocide. Neither side wants to compromise so the only other option is one side wiping out the other completely and utterly. A grim thought but that is the only way for lasting peace since they are hellbent on killing each other.

 

Yep, I mean that's how I always win Civilization and Masters of Orion, so it must be the right strategy in the real world.

[Moose]

Or perhaps one side will accept compensation. Everyone has their price.

[Walsingham]

Anyhoo, the only way for their to be peace in that region is through genocide. Neither side wants to compromise so the only other option is one side wiping out the other completely and utterly. A grim thought but that is the only way for lasting peace since they are hellbent on killing each other.

 

Yep, I mean that's how I always win Civilization and Masters of Orion, so it must be the right strategy in the real world.

 

 

*Tiny screams of slaughter in the background*

[Calax]

your opinion about israel is so far from the truth, i bet you think, this is a barren, camel and sheep infested backdoor country like those of middle africa.

 

so before having an opinion (if any) think about this- with who would you prefere to be: an arab zealous sheperd that will kill you for being modern, or a jewish doctor that developes the next cure for aids?.

2 things

One: most of your comments only reinforce my opinions that Israeli Jewish citizens are stuck up jerks who think they're just gods gift to the world and that everyone should just ignore their bad because they're just so bloody awesome.

 

Two: Opinions are opinions, not fact. To say an opinion is far from the truth is a terrible terrible use of english.

[GreasyDogMeat]

One: most of your comments only reinforce my opinions that Israeli Jewish citizens are stuck up jerks who think they're just gods gift to the world and that everyone should just ignore their bad because they're just so bloody awesome.

Most of your comments only reinforce my opinions that Palestinians are lunatic jerks who would blow you up as soon as look at you and get away with it because they're of darker skin color and therefore must be in the right in the world's eyes.

[Gorgon]

One of these days I tell you, one of these days the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is going to be solved by a sudden insight reached on an internet message board. Just you wait !

[Hell Kitty]

One: most of your comments only reinforce my opinions that Israeli Jewish citizens are stuck up jerks who think they're just gods gift to the world and that everyone should just ignore their bad because they're just so bloody awesome.

Most of your comments only reinforce my opinions that Palestinians are lunatic jerks who would blow you up as soon as look at you and get away with it because they're of darker skin color and therefore must be in the right in the world's eyes.

 

You get that from reading Calax's posts? Really? How bizarre.

[Volourn]

"I don't see what other choice Palestine has than do what they've been doing"

 

O RLY? They've had no choice but to do the following:

 

1. Bomb cafes, bosses and other place where unarmed civilians are

 

2. Murder each other, have the inability to even worth with fellow Palestinians. Heck, there is absically two Palestines. How cna anyone actually work with them when they cna't even work with each other?

 

3. Break inetrnational law repeatedly

 

4. Bigoted towards Isreal for their poor treatment of Palestinians (which Isreal is guilty of); but basically saying nothing about the treatment that their fellow Muslims in other countries poor tretament of Palestinians?

 

The list goes on. And, I could make a list for Isreal too; but this idea you have that palestinians are 'just the victims' who have 'no choice' is ludicrous.

[Calax]

One: most of your comments only reinforce my opinions that Israeli Jewish citizens are stuck up jerks who think they're just gods gift to the world and that everyone should just ignore their bad because they're just so bloody awesome.

Most of your comments only reinforce my opinions that Palestinians are lunatic jerks who would blow you up as soon as look at you and get away with it because they're of darker skin color and therefore must be in the right in the world's eyes.

 

You get that from reading Calax's posts? Really? How bizarre.

Confused the hell out of me too.

[Walsingham]

One of these days I tell you, one of these days the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is going to be solved by a sudden insight reached on an internet message board. Just you wait !

 

It would be hilarious if it was, tho. Worth trying for.

[lord of flies]

My opinion on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict:

Israel is committing a thinly-veiled depopulation of the Occupied Territories, piece by piece. They use the slightest terrorist attack as a "causus belli" to invade them, killing thousands and destroying cities. They are engaging in the most barbaric of roman-era tactics, "kill one hundred of them for every one of us they kill."

 

And it is not working.

[Walsingham]

My opinion on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict:

Israel is committing a thinly-veiled depopulation of the Occupied Territories, piece by piece. They use the slightest terrorist attack as a "causus belli" to invade them, killing thousands and destroying cities. They are engaging in the most barbaric of roman-era tactics, "kill one hundred of them for every one of us they kill."

 

And it is not working.

 

Look closer. That may be the ideal of many of their populations, but the Israeli Armed Forces gave up on that approach years ago. If you are geneuinely interested look into their official theories on operational warfare.

 

In any case, given that their opponents official aim is total extermination of the state what would you suggest they do? What's the half-way bargaining position? Only half the jews killed?

[Pidesco]

My opinion on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict:

Israel is committing a thinly-veiled depopulation of the Occupied Territories, piece by piece. They use the slightest terrorist attack as a "causus belli" to invade them, killing thousands and destroying cities. They are engaging in the most barbaric of roman-era tactics, "kill one hundred of them for every one of us they kill."

 

And it is not working.

 

 

If they were doing that they would be winning. Also, by the way, apart from perfect counter intelligence work, genocide is about the only strategy that works against irregular forces, especially if those irregulars are all Shi'as.

[Gorgon]

In any case, given that their opponents official aim is total extermination of the state what would you suggest they do? What's the half-way bargaining position? Only half the jews killed?

That's a misrepresentation of the entirety of Palestinian polity. Naturally the most defiant voices win out when Israeli hellfire missiles are a common occurrence in the cities. There are moderates, although they struggle to define themselves and have little to show for their previous negotiations. Hamas control is the direct result of the failure of diplomacy and the unwillingness to compromise.

Edited November 28, 2009 by Gorgon

[213374U]

Naturally the most defiant voices win out when Israeli hellfire missiles are a common occurrence in the cities.

That's an odd thing to say. Because then, you accept that "naturally", the most defiant voices should win out when Qassam rockets are a common occurrence in Israeli cities, no?