Are 'violent' games really violent?

[Walsingham]

Something I hadn't been giving enough mental time to: we are naturally quite violent. As a species we react violently and aggressively when deprived or threatened. And that is as much true of closeted academics as the sons of the ghetto.

 

I mean sub-Saharan africa isn't the way it is because they have too many playstations! Nor, now I think on it is the UK, because we have bucketloads of the damn things and according to widely accepted figures violent crime is going down.*

 

However, as 11xhooah once memorably said: "freedom, peace, and security aren't magically crapped out of a rainbow". Complacency is dangerous. What worked for existing generations may not work in future. I think what most alarms me is the extent to which children appear to be raised by electronic media rather than human interaction. I sit any wonder - assuming that is true - that I would be alarmed by that media focussing on concepts of unleashed violence?

 

 

 

 

* I'm stilll very concerned about the remaining violent crime, but that's another story.

[Walsingham]

BBC story showing how games are used to reconfront soldiers with PTSD.

 

If Prof. Sharkey's the guy I think he is, then I'd be inclined to think this is strong evidence.

[alanschu]

I don't understand what is going on in a soldier's mind that is suffering from PTSD to really state much on it.

 

 

Sounds like it's still the beginning stages of an experiment however.

[I want teh kotor 3]

This correlation thing is ********. I got Goldeneye for my fourth birthday, and GTA3 when I was 8; I have no violent tendencies, and can barely even kill bugs- that's with morbid insectophobia. I've been playing these violent games pretty much my whole life; I'm not a mass muderer, cop killer, or any one of those phrases Jack "I'm-a-****ing-idiot" Thompson (I've met him, and he really is as stupid as he seems) loves to throw around. It pisses me off; him and his followers evidently think, and try to convince other people, that games just turn people into murders. Its ridiculous.

 

I've always figured that the people who do stuff because of video games are people who would have snapped anyway because of problems in their perception of the world, real or fake.

 

I've no evidence to support this claim, but it seems logical enough to me. As soon as video games stop getting the blame, something else will. Oh no, it's the flashy lights in 2030's summer fashion that caused that quiet dude to pull out a railgun!

 

 

Exactly. Does anyone really believe that Mr. Columbine was driven to shoot up that school by games? HELL NO. He was a **********ing psychopath; he needed to be institutionalized. Games simply weren't his influence.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Games might have more of an effect on someone who's already unstable/maladjusted than on a normal person.

[taks]

Yes they are violent, but it's pretend violence, there are no victims.

i'd go a step further and say "simulated violence."

 

I don't buy that it desensitizes children since they are perfectly capable of telling real from make believe, it's what they do all day long when they play.

i agree. however, i conducted a pretty good cause/effect experiment with my son that indicated at least some children may act out the violence they experience in a violent game. punishment involved removing said game(s) from his library for the past 8 months along with some relatively in-depth instruction about the difference between the game and playing with friends at school. we no longer have the same issues and have since completed the game together (uncharted, did both in the past 2 weeks, actually).

 

taks

[Walsingham]

I want teh kotor: You're not really such an ass you're saying that because you turned out ok (single case) then any scientific study (many cases) is simply wrong?

[I want teh kotor 3]

I want teh kotor: You're not really such an ass you're saying that because you turned out ok (single case) then any scientific study (many cases) is simply wrong?

 

 

I think you forgot a "that" in there somewhere... And I don't recall reading a study that said that. I'm not saying that there isn't one, though. I do think that the idiot who said he shot cops because he did so in GTA was "preaching to the choir." People hate new things; because games weren't around 20 years ago, they get blamed for societal problems that they're not connected to. The same happened to rock back in the '60s, and look how that turned out.

[Oner]

I do think that the idiot who said he shot cops because he did so in GTA was "preaching to the choir." People hate to realize it's their fault if their kid/student/whatever becomes a bloodthirsty psycho; because games weren't around 20 years ago, they get blamed for societal problems that they're not connected to. The same happened to rock back in the '60s, and look how that turned out.

Fixed.

[I want teh kotor 3]

I do think that the idiot who said he shot cops because he did so in GTA was "preaching to the choir." People hate to realize it's their fault if their kid/student/whatever becomes a bloodthirsty psycho; because games weren't around 20 years ago, they get blamed for societal problems that they're not connected to. The same happened to rock back in the '60s, and look how that turned out.

Fixed.

 

 

Why is it their fault the kid was crazy to begin with?

[taks]

yeah, i'm sure there are some that are just born bad - or suffer some tragedy beyond the control of their parents (assuming said parents are still around) leading to psychosis/neurosis/narcissism later in life.

 

i mean, look at damien: his parents were wealthy, loving, and truly concerned for the welfare of their child and he turned out to be the antichrist. who'd have guessed it?

 

taks

[Oner]

Why is it their fault the kid was crazy to begin with?

Asking me difficult questions at 3 AM you evil, evil person.

 

I do think most school shootouts and the like could have been averted with a more 'controlled' environment. Besides, going postal usually has reasons, psychos shouldn't be "triggered" (BTW IMO all them can't be born crazies).

 

Come to think of it, instead of a VG Crusade, they should use the psychos as propaganda to discourage bullying, prevention and all.

[Walsingham]

I want teh kotor: You're not really such an ass you're saying that because you turned out ok (single case) then any scientific study (many cases) is simply wrong?

 

 

I think you forgot a "that" in there somewhere... And I don't recall reading a study that said that. I'm not saying that there isn't one, though. I do think that the idiot who said he shot cops because he did so in GTA was "preaching to the choir." People hate new things; because games weren't around 20 years ago, they get blamed for societal problems that they're not connected to. The same happened to rock back in the '60s, and look how that turned out.

 

 

What did I just say?

 

I mean sub-Saharan africa isn't the way it is because they have too many playstations!

 

All I'm pushing towards is the notion that the testable null hypothesis is that heavy doses of realistic violent gaming has NO effect on children where there is a weak array of contending normative pressures.

[Blarghagh]

No. Games don't make people kill other people. But a person who has spent their entire childhood watching depictions of murder in various forms a few million times may become desensitised to violence.

 

Desensitized to depictions of murder. A depiction of murder is FAR different than actual murder. Seeing an actual car crash with full knowledge that it's real makes a far bigger impression than seeing one in full detail in Carmageddon. It's a completely different experience.

 

Like I said, these people may have been desensitized to actual violence but only if they just don't possess the mental faculty to seperate it from real in the first place. Hence, it's a pre-existing problem that's not caused by games, and they could have easily snapped due to anything else (if gaming even caused them to snap and it wasn't pressure such as bullying or stress).

[Kaftan Barlast]

We've actually reached the point where we're literally repeating the same arguments over and over. Sweet

[Blarghagh]

Sorry, I actually didn't read the thread after mkreku's post (which I took as being at least partially targeted to me because I was one of those 'o blaargaag people would have snapped anyway' guys).

[Moose]

It's true I'm afraid. After playing GTA I immediately went out and ran over some prostitutes.

[Oner]

It's true I'm afraid. After playing GTA I immediately went out and ran over some prostitutes.

Their money?

[Hell Kitty]

Yes, violent games really are violent and insisting that we call the violence depicted in games something else seems to be nothing more than an attempt at avoiding the issue of the effect of violence in video games.

 

There is a mission in GTA4 where you need to kidnap a woman, and later you need to hit her while she is tied to a chair so she will look at you and you can take a photo to prove she is alive. I actually found this part to be rather stomach churning, far more disturbing than the hundreds of lives I'd already taken in the game.

 

I've been killing virtual people for 20 years, it's completely normal for me. I've never beaten any virtual helpless women before, however, so that act was disturbing in a way that shooting, stabbing or fireballing virtual peeps has never been. Have I been desensitized to the violence in games and movies? Absolutely. Does this desensitization extend to real life acts of violence? I haven't been exposed to much real life violence, so I couldn't say for sure.

 

Violence isn't all the same. Watching troops kill one another in an RTS isn't the same as performing the act yourself in an FPS. Shooting someone from afar isn't the same as beating them with your fists. A boxer beating his opponent in the ring isn't the same as a husband beating his wife in the family home. But violence is still violence.

[Gorgon]

It's pretty hard to feel empathy with a bunch of ones and zeroes. My reaction to the GTA example would be to be a little disgusted - at the writers.

[Moose]

It's pretty hard to feel empathy with a bunch of ones and zeroes. My reaction to the GTA example would be to be a little disgusted - at the writers.

 

No I thoroughly disagree with that. Killing my companion cube was extremely distressing

[Blarghagh]

Well, I've been trained to kill opponents since stomping on goombas. And while I recognize that game violence IS violence, it's violence against goombas and not people. That soldier in CoD 4 is just a goomba designed to look like a soldier to me.

[Kaftan Barlast]

Violence is painful and distressing, playing videogames is entertaining and relaxing.

 

 

And I just thought of another wonderful example: if FPS games are violent, what about playing paintball? If you look at it, its a much more realistic combat simulation in which you 'kill' your opponents by shooting very real paint balls at them that actually cause pain depending on how close you are. Yet I dont think anyone would put violence and paintball in the same sentence, its just considered a sport same as football or golf. And its played by everyone from kids to corporate CEO's on teambuilding conferences. The whole notion of 'violent games' is just a contruct. One that will disapear in a few years when the majority of people play videogames. And then a frag will be though of as just a frag, not a step on the way to becoming Charles Whitman.

 

 

 

edit: tidied up my arguments a bit

Edited November 5, 2009 by Kaftan Barlast

[Nightshape]

And, oh, if you disagree with me, I WILL BEAT YOU UP.

 

/facepalm

 

Volo... really...

[Wrath of Dagon]

Violence is painful and distressing, playing videogames is entertaining and relaxing.

 

 

And I just thought of another wonderful example: if FPS games are violent, what about playing paintball? If you look at it, its a much more realistic combat simulation in which you 'kill' your opponents by shooting very real paint balls at them that actually cause pain depending on how close you are. Yet I dont think anyone would put violence and paintball in the same sentence, its just considered a sport same as football or golf. And its played by everyone from kids to corporate CEO's on teambuilding conferences. The whole notion of 'violent games' is just a contruct. One that will disapear in a few years when the majority of people play videogames. And then a frag will be though of as just a frag, not a step on the way to becoming Charles Whitman.

 

 

 

edit: tidied up my arguments a bit

Playing paint ball is kind of like multiplayer without any graphic violence. It's quite different from a game depicting sadistic/graphic violence. Like I said, it's all about the moral message the game sends. Playing paint ball doesn't send any message.