alanschu Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Yes, mitigating in the sense that given the aggravating internal ethnic and external political factors, and lack of external support pretty much anything better than a Bosnia style disintegration is an achievement, and their elections are at least reasonably fair. Haha I know. I was just being difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lord of flies Posted September 8, 2009 Author Share Posted September 8, 2009 um, that's not what you asked early, to which i replied. you asked about how communism and totalitarian control united. to which i replied that force is required to implement communism.People say, "force is required to implement communism." To that I ask, why? Why do you have to force people to work? They say, "well, because they won't work if they don't have to." But then you are left with the obvious question - why do they work in a capitalist society? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humodour Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 um, that's not what you asked early, to which i replied. you asked about how communism and totalitarian control united. to which i replied that force is required to implement communism.People say, "force is required to implement communism." To that I ask, why? Why do you have to force people to work? They say, "well, because they won't work if they don't have to." But then you are left with the obvious question - why do they work in a capitalist society? Because they can, roughly, make as much money as hours/effort they put in, and because they enjoy the job. The first one can sometimes make up for lack of the last one, but either way they made a free choice to do that work. Clearly if they aren't making that free choice to work, then it's slavery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lord of flies Posted September 8, 2009 Author Share Posted September 8, 2009 Because they can, roughly, make as much money as hours/effort they put in, and because they enjoy the job. The first one can sometimes make up for lack of the last one, but either way they made a free choice to do that work.The entire basis of the capitalist system is that they don't make as much money as hours/effort put in. They make as little money as the arbitrary capitalist system figures it can give them, which has very little to do with actual effort.Clearly if they aren't making that free choice to work, then it's slavery.Ultimately people in the capitalist system don't make the "free choice to work," since if they don't work, they will have no money, and cannot support themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humodour Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Because they can, roughly, make as much money as hours/effort they put in, and because they enjoy the job. The first one can sometimes make up for lack of the last one, but either way they made a free choice to do that work.The entire basis of the capitalist system is that they don't make as much money as hours/effort put in. They make as little money as the arbitrary capitalist system figures it can give them, which has very little to do with actual effort. It's not arbitrary, and it is intimately tied to their effort and worth in the workplace, on a large scale. As long as you have strong labour laws and unions at least, like in Australia. Clearly if they aren't making that free choice to work, then it's slavery.Ultimately people in the capitalist system don't make the "free choice to work," since if they don't work, they will have no money, and cannot support themselves. Which is why you have universal healthcare and welfare for those who are unable to provide for themselves, so yes they do have the free choice to work or not. I'm no free market extremist. But heck, even if I was, it's not a terrible thing to require a person to earn at least their keep. Even Communism requires this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro Protagonist Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 I liked how this topic somehow segued from Unit 731 and Biological weapons development to Communism and Capitalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreasyDogMeat Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 I liked how this topic somehow segued from Unit 731 and Biological weapons development to Communism and Capitalism. That's what all LoF topics devolve into because its exactly what he's getting at. He didn't bring this up to talk about humanity etc... its about how the evil imperialists suck yada yada. Hell, he can't even talk about forum avatars or celebrities or whatever without it somehow being tied to his agenda about the US/western society in general sucking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 By following LoF's mind, Honk Kong has to be the ultimate slave nation, since it is the most capitalistic one in the world. Strangely though, the workers are one of the highest payed in the world as well. "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
213374U Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 So, money = freedom? - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 So, money = freedom? By having a culture of individuals conducting business with each other without coercion, creates a society where individuals can have the least oppression /Adam Smith. But on the other hand, by having a free society where individuals can freely join the democratic process, without the use of force on each other, creates a framework where free men can conduct business without outside force /Chomsky. Pick whatever you want, or blend the both "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
213374U Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 **** yeah! Ideologues: a clever quote for every situation. On a somewhat more serious note, though, Marx's stuff sounds good too... on paper. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 (edited) Of course it does, it is the same with Friedman's utopian teachings. True communism will never work in practice, and neither will there ever be a truly free market. Edited September 8, 2009 by Meshugger "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purkake Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 (edited) **** yeah! Ideologues: a clever quote for every situation. On a somewhat more serious note, though, Marx's stuff sounds good too... on paper. I think we went over that a couple of pages back. Ideas are just that, ideas. No ideology is perfect and they don't really work in practice exactly as written. Edited September 8, 2009 by Purkake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
213374U Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 So, if we can't trust ideologies to work as intended... are we just making up stuff as we go? Sounds like fun. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purkake Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 (edited) You just don't expect everything to work perfectly as written and compensate for that. That's why you don't have a completely free market even in America or other places that prefer as little government interference as possible. Edited September 8, 2009 by Purkake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humodour Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 So, if we can't trust ideologies to work as intended... are we just making up stuff as we go? Sounds like fun. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with maximising the good of multiple ideologies and minimising the bad? It's an equilibrium process - and because it's based on careful adjustments over time it's a lot more likely to be stable and successful. Why so cynical, n00b? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taks Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 People say, "force is required to implement communism." To that I ask, why? Why do you have to force people to work? They say, "well, because they won't work if they don't have to." But then you are left with the obvious question - why do they work in a capitalist society? in other words, no, you are not capable of dealing with my answer. you dodged it. for the record, why does not matter, the simple fact is that they will not. totalitarian force is required, irrespective of why. asking why people work in a capitalist society is a strawman, they are working for themselves. i was right. you aren't that bright. taks comrade taks... just because. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taks Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 On a somewhat more serious note, though, Marx's stuff sounds good too... on paper. no it doesn't. marx did not understand demand. taks comrade taks... just because. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsingham Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 I liked how this topic somehow segued from Unit 731 and Biological weapons development to Communism and Capitalism. That's what all LoF topics devolve into because its exactly what he's getting at. He didn't bring this up to talk about humanity etc... its about how the evil imperialists suck yada yada. Hell, he can't even talk about forum avatars or celebrities or whatever without it somehow being tied to his agenda about the US/western society in general sucking. Precisely. "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgon Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Karl Marx mostly makes sense in a situation where a majority of the population slave away in factories and have to band together to do more than barely survive. It's not terribly relevant in the information age. History tells us that Capitalists systems are neither inherently unstable or headed towards implosion and revolution. Capitalism is merely the default organisation, a force of nature more than a system of government or ideology. Everything looked a lot different in the aftermath of the industrial revolution though. Na na na na na na ... greg358 from Darksouls 3 PVP is a CHEATER. That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lord of flies Posted September 8, 2009 Author Share Posted September 8, 2009 in other words, no, you are not capable of dealing with my answer. you dodged it. for the record, why does not matter, the simple fact is that they will not. totalitarian force is required, irrespective of why. asking why people work in a capitalist society is a strawman, they are working for themselves. i was right. you aren't that bright. They will not? Not ever? And the force required is not just real, but totalitarian? Are you quite sure about that? My point about people working in a capitalist society is that they are forced to work in a capitalist society, or they will be punished/denied certain privileges. The same is true of communist societies. But of course, you can't even see your blatant hypocrisy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purkake Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Does your mother know that you are an internet champion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taks Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 (edited) They will not? Not ever? um, no, unless you can fashion an imaginary world filled with people that ALL have the exact same demands. that's why communism (and several other related collectivist isms) are considered idealist. And the force required is not just real, but totalitarian? Are you quite sure about that? absolutely. all it takes is one person to not want to work for others to disprove your point: me. you are disproved. My point about people working in a capitalist society is that they are forced to work in a capitalist society, or they will be punished/denied certain privileges. The same is true of communist societies. um, what punishment? you apparently don't understand capitalism at all. But of course, you can't even see your blatant hypocrisy. do you even understand the definition of hypocrisy? i think you need a dictionary. edit: hehe... "i don't think that word means what you think it means." taks Edited September 8, 2009 by taks comrade taks... just because. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taks Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Capitalism is merely the default organisation, a force of nature more than a system of government or ideology. i have, on more than one occasion, referred to capitalism as more of an observation of what happens when people practice free trade, rather than a "system" in and of itself. taks comrade taks... just because. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfted1 Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 edit: hehe... "i don't think that word means what you think it means." taks Inconceivable! "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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