Too similiar to Mass Effect?

[kreese12]

Does anyone else think Alpha Protocol took way too many design ques from Mass Effect?

 

I'm really looking forward to this game irregardless, and I like Obsidian Entertainment as a whole a lot, but it is really distressing to see the increasing lack of creativity in the gaming industry.

 

Gaming used to be like one of the most artistic and creative fields you could get into. Now it seems like most companies just copy the design of the most popular game of that genre of the day.

 

Really when I see Alpha Protocol in action , it looks like it could feasibly just be a re-skinned Mass Effect.

 

The dialog 'new' thing is neat, but all it really is a simple timer on responding to questions. Not exactly the re-invention of the wheel -- or really even that much of a idea. Not saying it's a bad idea -- but besides that, the mechanics of this game look just like Mass Effects, except for maybe minus the team / squad mates.

 

I loved Mass Effect but I'd just like to see game companies be brave enough to be a bit more inventive -- judging from Obsidian's past games, it certainly seems they have the ample creative talent to do just that. So why not use it?

Edited June 16, 2009 by kreese12

[Pidesco]

Stealth.

 

Proper melee combat.

 

Actual choices and consequences not limited to a couple of events.

 

No bad vehicle sections inserted as filler.

 

Better ranged combat, hopefully.

[Slowtrain]

Gaming used to be like one of the most artistic and creative fields you could get into

 

 

wat?

 

I must have been asleep that day.

[kreese12]

Gaming used to be like one of the most artistic and creative fields you could get into

 

 

wat?

 

I must have been asleep that day.

 

Sorry I meant "game making." Like, even 10 years ago I would argue that a higher proportion of games tried new things, and were more inventive and different then one other. In the last 2-3 years especially, it seems like many big games are just sticking to genre conventions, and many games just copy the principle core design of the most commercially successful games of the prior year.

 

Maybe the most evident example of this Gears of War. There are tons of games that just copied the game exactly, with new art assets.

 

This leads to many games that are just second-rate versions of last year's hit. Which sucks.

Edited June 16, 2009 by kreese12

[Slowtrain]

Gaming used to be like one of the most artistic and creative fields you could get into

 

 

wat?

 

I must have been asleep that day.

 

Sorry I meant "game making." Like, even 10 years ago I would argue that a higher proportion of games tried new things, and were more inventive and different then one other. In the last 2-3 years especially, it seems like many big games are just sticking to genre conventions, and many games just copy the principle core design of the most commercially successful games of the prior year.

 

Maybe the most evident example of this Gears of War. There are tons of games that just copied the game exactly, with new art assets.

 

This leads to many games that are just second-rate versions of last year's hit. Which sucks.

 

 

Ok. Yeah, I pretty much agree. Games cost so much money now, it's hard to stray too much from convention. Anything that sells is going to be copied.

 

But you could make the argument that copy-cat is the norm in pretty much any industry where large amounts of money are at risk.

 

Not that I like it. Copy-cat design may lead to stability and solvency but it doesn't lead to greatness or immortality.

[kreese12]

Stealth.

 

Proper melee combat.

 

Actual choices and consequences not limited to a couple of events.

 

No bad vehicle sections inserted as filler.

 

Better ranged combat, hopefully.

 

 

Stealth -=> Ya, that's true. I guess stealth never appealed to me much so I didn't think of it.

 

Proper melee combat -=> I 'll have to read up on this. It seemed to me from the videos it is pretty much 'go up to the guy and hit the melee attack button' like Mass Effect, but with better and more varied animations.

 

Actual choices and consequences not limited to a couple of events -=> I hope so. I think Obsidian can do it.

 

No bad vehicle sections inserted as filler -=> I don't know about this. The vehicle section of M.E is just in addition to all the other parts of the game, which I'm saying A.P looks a lot like.

 

Better ranged combat, hopefully -=> I hope so too. It looks pretty straight forward to me though; pretty much just the Mass Effect model, but without having to worry about the bionics, a greater emphasis was put on making the firefights more streamlined.

 

Thanks for your points.

[Pidesco]

Proper melee combat -=> I 'll have to read up on this. It seemed to me from the videos it is pretty much 'go up to the guy and hit the melee attack button' like Mass Effect, but with better and more varied animations.

 

 

As far as I can recall, they haven't said anything specific about this, yet. However, I'm guessing (hoping?) that melee will at least sport some limited combos and special abilities, especially as your character invests more points into the HtH side of things.

[kreese12]

That'd be cool

Edited June 16, 2009 by kreese12

[kreese12]

Actually just to counter my own point a bit , there are the mission handlers too. That is a cool and non-Mass Effect concept.

[Enoch]

Solo missions instead of 3-man squads.

 

No "Press X for Good, Press Y for Evil."

 

Twice as many HAWT CHIX to sleep with.

Edited June 17, 2009 by Enoch

[Slowtrain]

Solo missions where instead of 3-man squads.

 

No "Press X for Good, Press Y for Evil."

 

Twice as many HAWT CHIX to sleep with.

 

 

hot chicks are rapidly becoming passe.

[kreese12]

Hehe I beg to differ. Hot chicks have been a big deal for the last many thousands of years and will continue to be a big selling point for anything for a long, long time to come IMHO.

[Oner]

Stealth.

 

Proper melee combat.

 

Actual choices and consequences not limited to a couple of events.

 

No bad vehicle sections inserted as filler.

 

Better ranged combat, hopefully.

Even though I agree with you, I just want to point out that all this could be part of ME 2 too.

[Humodour]

Does anyone else think Alpha Protocol took way too many design ques from Mass Effect?

 

No. I'm sure it took a few good ones from Mass Effect and Deus Ex, and NOLF, and Fallout and KOTOR2 and NWN2 and the list goes on, which these games in turn took and refined from other games. Why does that bother you buddy?

[kreese12]

Mass Effect, Deus Ex and Fallout were all really unique designs. Of course they took inspirations from previous games, but they had mostly very unique, creative visions for their games. (Sorry what's NOLF? Probably know it but can't decipher that acroynm.) The other games were sequels so I'm not going to count them.

 

There was hardly anything like Deus Ex, Mass Effect, and Fallout when they came out. I'm talking in respect to their fundamental designs.

 

Whereas when I see Alpha Protocol, it looks a lot like how Mass Effect was designed. I.E the skills system, the cover system, the combat system, the dialogue system, and the U.I.

 

It bothers me because the design staff of Obsidian designed some really great games, and I just have fears that they took too much influence from Mass Effect because it was such a good selling RPG, that's why -- out of fear of not having commercial success, instead of taking more risks and trying some really fundamentally things.

 

The best games, the games that are remembered, the classics, they pretty much all came up with new, interesting designs that were groundbreaking for their time. For PC games at least, it is uncommon for a derivative design to reach the upper pinnacles of the best games of the year.

 

In short: I just hope the Obsidian team didn't get afraid of aiming too high, and missing the mark -- instead of lowering the mark and hitting a safer target.

Edited June 17, 2009 by kreese12

[Humodour]

Mass Effect, Deus Ex and Fallout were all really unique designs. Of course they took inspirations from previous games, but they had mostly very unique, creative visions for their games. (Sorry what's NOLF? Probably know it but can't decipher that acroynm.) The other games were sequels so I'm not going to count them.

 

There was hardly anything like Deus Ex, Mass Effect, and Fallout when they came out. I'm talking in respect to their fundamental designs.

 

Whereas when I see Alpha Protocol, it looks a lot like how Mass Effect was designed. I.E the skills system, the cover system, the combat system, the dialogue system, and the U.I.

 

It bothers me because the design staff of Obsidian designed some really great games, and I just have fears that they took too much influence from Mass Effect because it was such a good selling RPG, that's why -- out of fear of not having commercial success, instead of taking more risks and trying some really fundamentally things.

 

The best games, the games that are remembered, the classics, they pretty much all came up with new, interesting designs that were groundbreaking for their time. For PC games at least, it is uncommon for a derivative design to reach the upper pinnacles of the best games of the year.

 

In short: I just hope the Obsidian team didn't get afraid of aiming too high, and missing the mark -- instead of lowering the mark and hitting a safer target.

 

You haven't even played AP yet and despite the information that has been released, there's a huge amount that hasn't, so how on earth can you say that?

 

Or are you asking for Obsidian to design a really unique, revolutionary new game like they were with Aliens before it was put on hold? Obsidian isn't going to do that for every single game. Even so I fundamentally disagree with your assertion that what we've been told about AP so far makes it any way generic, a re-hash, or unoriginal, besides the fact that they're not reinventing the wheel repeatedly.

 

The best games, the games that are remembered, the classics, they pretty much all came up with new, interesting designs that were groundbreaking for their time.

 

No they didn't. Take off your rose-coloured lenses for a second. Many of the best games were actually the best because they did one thing really well and/or integrated all their parts together better than any game before.

 

I think you're struggling with another issue here, as well - you're seeking innovation for innovation's sake rather than for the sake of fun and entertainment. There comes a point in a technology or medium's development when new research or techniques becomes harder and harder. Just like it's hard to make a best selling game these days without millions of dollars and large group of people working on the game, it's also hard to come up with new ideas and features in games these days that haven't already been done before. Just like any maths proof I come up with these days is likely to have been already proved before (because we're building on history instead of repeating it), any new game out today isn't liable to include many innovative new features (and any game that does is liable to suck for trying too hard to push boundaries for the sake of pushing boundaries).

 

15 years ago I could take an FPS and go "wow, wouldn't this be grand if a few key characters had dialogue?". 10 years ago it was "wow, wouldn't this be grand if every character had dialogue, and a few key characters had multiple dialogue options characters?". 5 years ago it's "wow, wouldn't this be grand if every character you spoke to had multiple dialogue options and many of them meaningful?" Where do you go from there? It's not an easy question to answer. The same pattern has been evolving in every other area of computer gaming. So if every area of gaming has evolved since the days of yore, to the point it now takes a lot of thinking and eureka moments in the shower to come up with something truly innovative for just one feature, where do you go from there?

 

My answer would be that you only innovate where it makes sense to. If you can make a perfectly awesome game by just incorporating all the awesome features of past games without adding a single new feature of your own, I say do so - you'll still end up with one of the best games of all time.

[Llyranor]

Proper melee combat -=> I 'll have to read up on this. It seemed to me from the videos it is pretty much 'go up to the guy and hit the melee attack button' like Mass Effect, but with better and more varied animations.

 

 

As far as I can recall, they haven't said anything specific about this, yet. However, I'm guessing (hoping?) that melee will at least sport some limited combos and special abilities, especially as your character invests more points into the HtH side of things.

IIRC, you have your fast and strong attacks. Quick tap vs hold button. If you tap multiple attacks in succession, you build up a combo. The higher the skill level, the longer the combo potential. You can end the combo at any time by using a strong attack finisher. You have multiple animations per combo - the game just chooses one or the other for diversity's sake, but it doesn't actually affect the gameplay.

 

You also have different attacks depending on your state and the enemy's, whether the enemy has spotted you and you're sneaking behind (eg. snap neck), whether you're charging at him (eg. jump kick), and so on.

 

Essentially, it sounds like an actual gameplay option, as opposed to Mass Effect's all-purpose single button action.

[kreese12]

Krezack -=> I'd like to reply to all your points in full, but I can't right now, I don't have the time. I will tomorrow however.

 

But for now let me just address on issue you made :

 

My quote: "The best games, the games that are remembered, the classics, they pretty much all came up with new, interesting designs that were groundbreaking for their time."

 

Your reply: "No they didn't. Take off your rose-coloured lenses for a second. Many of the best games were actually the best because they did one thing really well and/or integrated all their parts together better than any game before."

 

Fallout, Deus Ex and Mass Effect, the games I was talking about in that bit you quoted, certainly were new, interesting and original designs. It is stretch to say Fallout for example, integrated pre-existing parts better than anything else, so that is why it was so good. There was no other game that was very similar in design to Fallout before Fallout.

 

I'm not talking general things, as in , like there was no RPG before Fallout , or no game had levels, or no game was in a post nuclear-war or whatever. But the entire look ,interface, character design, UI, etc etc was all very original to the Fallout.

 

Let's look at Deus Ex. I really would not say that it was such a classic because it integrated the pre-existing ideas of the FPS with the pre-existing ideas of the RPG. I would argue that the game was entirely new design of a RPG-FPS hybrid. The there is a subtle, yet important, difference.

 

Hmm for example you can't combine Gears of War with GTA and somehow turn up with a classic sand-box crime game. It's much more than that. You have to create an entire new vision and design for a game that takes some elements from one, and some elements from another and create an entirely new formula previously unknown. Fallout, Mass Effect and Deus Ex weren't just mash ups -- they were beautifully executed complete visions for unique gaming experiences.

 

 

And what was the "one thing they did really well" about Deus Ex , Fallout and Mass Effect? I think anyone who played any of these three games would say there is whole frickin' bunch of stuff they did well.

 

Nor were they classics because they merely "integrated all their parts better than any game before." Tons of average games integrate all their parts well, but aren't exceptional games. Recent examples including Elven Legacy, Zeno Clash, Demigod etc. etc.

[Llyranor]

I don't get it, didn't Mass Effect just basically mix in standard Bioware storytelling + Gears of War + Oblivion persuasion minigame + Big Rigs vehicular physics?

Edited June 17, 2009 by Llyranor

[Oblarg]

I don't get it, didn't Mass Effect just basically mix in standard Bioware storytelling + Gears of War + Oblivion persuasion minigame + Big Rigs vehicular physics?

 

This is by far the most epic post I have read in a forum today.

[Gorth]

Thread pruned a bit. Lets see if we can't reduce the noise levels a bit? >_

 

On topic: I fail to see any semblance with Mass Effect, in fact it makes me wonder if people that compares it that game have played that many crpgs? If anything, it seems to have a lot more in common with VMBL sans the setting/vampire theme.

 

Or is it just because both games runs on the same Unreal engine licensed from the same third part, that people thinks that there are superficial similarities?

[mike kills you]

Thread pruned a bit. Lets see if we can't reduce the noise levels a bit?

 

On topic: I fail to see any semblance with Mass Effect, in fact it makes me wonder if people that compares it that game have played that many crpgs? If anything, it seems to have a lot more in common with VMBL sans the setting/vampire theme.

 

Or is it just because both games runs on the same Unreal engine licensed from the same third part, that people thinks that there are superficial similarities?

 

THANK YOU SOOOOO MUCH!!!!!! I may b new but trust me, ima pro

 

It's simple really! Same engine, different gameplay, AP is strategic and at times u have to be spazzy so u kill fast! In mass effect u need the class that has shotguns and biotics so all u need to learn is shotguns and barrier and u beat the game at lvl. 10!!!!!!!!!!

Face it! They r nothing alike and AP will always b on top of mass effect!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited June 17, 2009 by mike kills you

[Oblarg]

This game is as similar to Mass Effect as Mass Effect is to Gears of War.

[Mr. Fob]

And just by the way, a game can never be too similar to mass effect (except maybe on side missions and in elevators )

Edited June 17, 2009 by Mr. Fob

[Zoma]

I don't think in Mass Effect you could even

 

-jump across ledges,

 

-climb ladders,

 

-jump down from ledges,

 

-do a tumbling roll,

 

-make a swat turn from cover to cover,

 

-perform blind fire behind cover,

 

-throw an arcing grenade,

 

-perform combos with melee,

 

-limited ammunition resources,

 

-perform take downs,

 

-Stealth as an optional gameplay

 

 

Seriously, realistically, its looking more like Uncharted than any resemblence to Mass Effect.