Obsidian making Fallout: New Vegas

[CoM_Solaufein]

Hey how about that Fallout NV discussion?

 

They need to bring some realism to this game. Books and packs of cigarettes laying out in the open is unlikely after 200 years. Hell even in ruined buildings it would be unlikely. Items like this need a steady environment. I liked those skeletons in the game, they should have had them in the cars as well. There should have been a lot more in the rubble of the city.

 

Boarded up buildings is lame. Who the hell is going to board up a building so you can't enter it after a nuclear war?

[Gorgon]

Some elements combined conspire to send everything over the top.

 

[Slowtrain]

I'm thinking that maybe the word "story" needs to be defined.

 

Certainly, I'm thinking that mkreku and I are defining "story" very differently in this instance.

 

If Stephen King wrote a page of description, describing, from a fly-on the-wall POV, skeletons lying around a bathtub with a radio and a rain bonnet and some dog poo, it might be a very awesome piece of descriptive writing, but it wouldn't be a story.

 

In my opinion.

[mkreku]

Boarded up buildings is lame. Who the hell is going to board up a building so you can't enter it after a nuclear war?

I agree. I would also have liked there to be a lot more "dummy" buildings. By that I mean buildings you could enter that weren't named on the map, with arrows pointing to them and that *ka-ching* sound you got whenever you were close enough for them to appear on the map. Oh, and a LOT more side-quests spread out over the world wouldn't have hurt either, especially in those dummy buildings. They don't even have to be especially complex, just being there helps with the incentive to continue exploring.

 

Hell, it doesn't even have to be real quests to get me interested. Like the toasters in Wasteland. They were a riddle from the beginning up until the very end, when you got the necessary skills and equipment to solve them, and the reward wasn't nearly enough for the amount of thought I spent on them.. Still, I remember them to this day and I spent a lot of hours on searching for them so they had to be worth something.

[Tagaziel]

Actually, I have played them, several times, and in my memory they used speech bubbles to describe.. well, virtually everything. I assumed it was because of the top down view and the low detail of the graphics (low resolution). But feel free to refresh my memory of what visual cues the previous Fallout's backgrounds contained.

 

Descriptions, as I've said, are one part of the system Fo1 and Fo2 use. Of course, in your quixotic quest against everything Fo1 you blow that part out of proportion, remaining purposefully ignorant.

 

But yeah, let's indulge you with a couple of examples. Farms first and foremost, or rather, visible crops and agriculture. Apart from mere decoration, they serve an important role, indicating that the settlement is large enough to sustain agriculture, is self sufficent and has access to water. It's a sign of civilization and also tells quite a bit about the towns themselves. Compare Shady Sands and Klamath. The former is a settlement built from the ground up with a GECK, neatly organized, with the agriculture out of the way, which contrasts with Klamath, a disorderly town with the crops smack right in the middle of what would be the town square, showing that, in essence, its just a bunch of vultures eking out an existence in the ruins of a burned out pre-war city (something the Chosen One picks up on in conversation with Maida Buckner).

 

But yeah, you might say "wait a minute, I asked about things similiar to those in Fo3, not decor". Okay. Let's get one thing out of the way, The Glow. Now that we have one of the greatest "tell-story-through-gameplay" locations in Fallout, let's focus on your vignettes. Vault 15 for instance, there are clips scattered near rock formations that are obviously cave ins. I don't know about you, but my imagination is pretty vivid, so the first thing coming to mind is the sight of a scavenger crushed by few tons of rock from a collapsing ceiling, leaving behind only a handful of clips. But yeah, since it was vacated about forty years before Fallout happens and the dwellers were pretty thorough, there's not much left behind, since they left and took their stuff with them.

 

A better example is Necropolis. First are the sewers, where you find dead ghoul bodies, shot to death (a text description informs you about that, since it's necessary. Fallout 3 would have to use text too, since apart from the same limbs flying around the place, the engine doesn't support markings on dead bodies to my knowledge) by an unknown party, showing the ruthlessness of the city and ghouls/supermutants (it's never stated who shot them). Cars placed around Necropolis, one Diesel truck jammed halfway into a building, I've always wondered what caused the driver to crash, maybe it was the blinding flash?

 

Fo2 has more of these vignettes (though I'm increasingly unsure as to what exactly you want me to point out), such as the abandoned second Gecko nuclear reactor, the crashed car in Den with a Vault City citizen's body next to it, the slaughtered scavengers in SAD, the malfunctioning howitzer there, Dunton's slaughterhouse and some, err, doubtful ingredients, crashed Vertibird, random encounters with settlements in them, random encounter city maps with crashed cars etc.

 

Most of what I'm pointing out is basic stuff creating believeability and versimilitude, but also creating those little side stories you're so fond of. Note that I'm unsure what you really mean by "background" - do separate quarters for initiates, knights and scribes, paladins and elders in Lost Hills count as background or not? Their big mainframe counts or not? Etc.

[Mikhailian]

If i recall (correct me if wrong) in the old games many of the items that could be found actually weren't prewar, just their concepts and designs. Sure much of the shelved food was pre-apoc, but I always accepted that as a tongue in cheek reference to the obsession of extreme food preservation in the fifties and sixties. They were making some pretty radical claims about what would be achievable with science back then. Although, there have been some real-life isolated incidents involving still edible canned goods that are nearly as old as canning itself (napoleonic war). But back to FO, I'm fairly certain that stimpacks and tommyguns were actually being manufactured during the FO2 timeline, and it seems reasonable to assume that other things were too. We know for a fact that most ammunition was being created at that the time.

 

All that aside, I do think that the ammount of trash just laying about is a bit odd. I would have thought it a bit more likely that things would have a more windswept and sand blasted look with the very occasional small bit of trash to remind you that people once lived there.

[mkreku]

With regards to little touches, anyone else miss flavour text for items ?

 

I do. It's really annoying, especially after going straight for Fo3 after finishing the two previous games. I grew to rely on the descriptions to the point where primitive pictograms only confuse me.

But yeah, let's indulge you with a couple of examples. Farms first and foremost, or rather, visible crops and agriculture. Apart from mere decoration, they serve an important role, indicating that the settlement is large enough to sustain agriculture, is self sufficent and has access to water. It's a sign of civilization and also tells quite a bit about the towns themselves. Compare Shady Sands and Klamath. The former is a settlement built from the ground up with a GECK, neatly organized, with the agriculture out of the way, which contrasts with Klamath, a disorderly town with the crops smack right in the middle of what would be the town square, showing that, in essence, its just a bunch of vultures eking out an existence in the ruins of a burned out pre-war city (something the Chosen One picks up on in conversation with Maida Buckner).

 

But yeah, you might say "wait a minute, I asked about things similiar to those in Fo3, not decor". Okay. Let's get one thing out of the way, The Glow. Now that we have one of the greatest "tell-story-through-gameplay" locations in Fallout, let's focus on your vignettes. Vault 15 for instance, there are clips scattered near rock formations that are obviously cave ins. I don't know about you, but my imagination is pretty vivid, so the first thing coming to mind is the sight of a scavenger crushed by few tons of rock from a collapsing ceiling, leaving behind only a handful of clips. But yeah, since it was vacated about forty years before Fallout happens and the dwellers were pretty thorough, there's not much left behind, since they left and took their stuff with them.

 

A better example is Necropolis. First are the sewers, where you find dead ghoul bodies, shot to death (a text description informs you about that, since it's necessary. Fallout 3 would have to use text too, since apart from the same limbs flying around the place, the engine doesn't support markings on dead bodies to my knowledge) by an unknown party, showing the ruthlessness of the city and ghouls/supermutants (it's never stated who shot them). Cars placed around Necropolis, one Diesel truck jammed halfway into a building, I've always wondered what caused the driver to crash, maybe it was the blinding flash?

 

Fo2 has more of these vignettes (though I'm increasingly unsure as to what exactly you want me to point out), such as the abandoned second Gecko nuclear reactor, the crashed car in Den with a Vault City citizen's body next to it, the slaughtered scavengers in SAD, the malfunctioning howitzer there, Dunton's slaughterhouse and some, err, doubtful ingredients, crashed Vertibird, random encounters with settlements in them, random encounter city maps with crashed cars etc.

 

Most of what I'm pointing out is basic stuff creating believeability and versimilitude, but also creating those little side stories you're so fond of. Note that I'm unsure what you really mean by "background" - do separate quarters for initiates, knights and scribes, paladins and elders in Lost Hills count as background or not? Their big mainframe counts or not? Etc.

Funny.

 

I guess one of these games just can't do anything wrong, huh?

[Tagaziel]

Yes, you are correct, there were only a few pre-war edibles in the game, two of which (Small Dusty Box of Some Sort AKA TV Dinner and Box of Noodles) were inedible, while the other (Nuka-Cola and booze) were way beyond expiration dates (not that alcohol has one). The rest was all postwar. Especially Bob's Iguana Bits, yum yum!

 

Funny.

 

I guess one of these games just can't do anything wrong, huh?

 

Since Fallout came before Fallout 3, I'm judging Fallout 3 as a sequel, not a standalone game.

 

And Fallout 1/2 had their share of flaws, yes, but we're discussing Fallout 3, not them.

Edited May 4, 2009 by Mikael Grizzly

[Slowtrain]

I guess the sudden flurry of the story debate is over?

 

Too bad. I was enjoying that one.

[Tagaziel]

It seems we're easily distracted :]

[TwinkieGorilla]

hahahaha, i started actually quoting people and then i noticed how many more posts i had to go to get to the end, gave up, read Pop's post, agreed and said "screw it."

 

also, for the record: Kaji, my argument is not a strawman and if you really want to dance i'm ready to spin in circles.

 

also, Sawyer, no offense man...but you're starting to lose what faith i had left in this project. you're starting to sound like a Beth dev. you do realize that Mise en Scene isn't the argument, right? i hope you're just being errr..."contrary" for the sake of it and not...ugh. no. i don't even want to think you've got the hook, line and sinker in yr mouth.

 

Edited for, um, words.

Edited May 4, 2009 by TwinkieGorilla

[J.E. Sawyer]

That sounds pretty fickle.

[Tagaziel]

Off topic, I wonder if Roshambo still has enough care remaining to start posting here.

[TwinkieGorilla]

That sounds pretty fickle.

 

getting a bad feeling is fickle? not the definition i'm aware of.

[Malcador]

Hah Twink, being a Fallout fan is a lot like being an Arsenal fan, there's good promise but always be ready for disappointment.

[TwinkieGorilla]

oh believe me, man. i think i over-reacted with hope when the news was announced and reality's starting to set back in. i didn't think i'd see Sawyer swimming in the Fox River though, tbh (that's a joke only he's likely to get. us ex-Appletonians we tight like that).

[J.E. Sawyer]

I've been found out. Because I think the development of atmosphere is valuable, I am inherently opposed to primary methods of traditional storytelling. Words, themes, and characters are my enemy. I am the destroyer of your dreams. Sorry it had to come to this.

[Malcador]

Ah phew, lucky you're tight with him, I figured you were gonna get banned. Again But, we can at least expect better writing and a story that's not FO2 : Redux, heh - and maybe one that's told, rather than appealing to the "let's LARP in a cRPG" crowd. In the end, that's about the best we'll get I think, given the way games and gamers are these days.

Edited May 4, 2009 by Malcador

[TwinkieGorilla]

I've been found out. Because I think the development of atmosphere is valuable, I am inherently opposed to primary methods of traditional storytelling. Words, themes, and characters are my enemy. I am the destroyer of your dreams. Sorry it had to come to this.

 

nope. i wasn't saying that, i'm not saying that, and it wasn't the point. i think you know this though.

 

 

(no, malcodor, i'm not tight with him. he just went to school where i was born is all. it was jokes.)

Edited May 4, 2009 by TwinkieGorilla

[J.E. Sawyer]

nope. i wasn't saying that, i'm not saying that, and it wasn't the point. i think you know this though.

Then why are you losing faith in my ability to make this a good game?

[TwinkieGorilla]

Then why are you losing faith in my ability to make this a good game?

 

oh well, i don't know. maybe i'm not. it just seemed like you were defending Bethesda's inability to meld words with pictures...unjustly. i understand you have to play nice, but your sarcastic defense just reminded me of the attitudes of the Bethesda devs...who, irl, may be the coolest people ever...but on the boards...i don't know. they just rubbed me the wrong way.

 

trust me man, i shouted at NMA that i HAVE to believe you (for that hometown love) and stuff. i'm just a reactionary guy, really.

 

(edited key prefix necessary to post!)

Edited May 4, 2009 by TwinkieGorilla

[J.E. Sawyer]

My responses were short, so I'm sorry if this didn't come across, but the only argument I was trying to make is that Bethesda did (in my opinion) a good job in setting up their environments/atmospheric tone in F3. I understand that this is part of a larger discussion involving storytelling in general, but I do feel that visual atmosphere is an important element of storytelling, whether it's in theatre, movies, or games.

[Tigranes]

Off topic, I wonder if Roshambo still has enough care remaining to start posting here.

 

Rosh was great. We need to get Rosh and Vince over here for a cataclysmic e-wrestling competition. We already have Volourn.

 

I don't think anybody in the thread really disagrees about storytelling/vis.atm by the way... this is what happens when we do silly stuff like trying to define 'RPG'

 

Oh god, no! Don't do it! Don't-

[Pop]

Boarded up buildings is lame. Who the hell is going to board up a building so you can't enter it after a nuclear war?

I remember the Denver VB design docs detailing how social order had broken down shortly before the bombs fell. Mass rioting, firebombing, etc.

[Tagaziel]

My responses were short, so I'm sorry if this didn't come across, but the only argument I was trying to make is that Bethesda did (in my opinion) a good job in setting up their environments/atmospheric tone in F3. I understand that this is part of a larger discussion involving storytelling in general, but I do feel that visual atmosphere is an important element of storytelling, whether it's in theatre, movies, or games.

 

Damn right. A prime example of a well executed approach is Half-Life 2, which mixes traditional storytelling with environmental.