Thin Client Gaming

[LostStraw]

Some forum goers were discussing thin client gaming a while back and the general consensus was that it wouldn't work. Well OnLive [video interview at gametrailers.com] is taking a stab at it. They claim to have solved the latency issues -- in the video interview it's all hand waiving though and sounds rather magical so I'm not holding my breath. It's supposed to come out in Winter of this year so it wont take too long to see how it turns out (crosses fingers).

 

Imagines playing Crysis at Bok's settings

 

here's part two of the interview [gametrailers.com]

[Rosbjerg]

And here I thought I was being innovative when I suggested this to a friend the other day..

 

* It's a cool idea, but we are some years away from it being possible on large scale - mostly because internet speeds aren't up to the task yet. When we get either optical fibers or very good wireless connections this will probably begin to gain ground. Unless hardware supplier and manufacturers manage to kill it before it ruins their buisness.

 

 

 

* (I'm at work, where I don't have sound and I couldn't hear the interview - so pardon me if I just repeated what the guy said).

[Moatilliatta]

Gaintbomb claims 80ms of latency which sounds pretty bad.

 

Anyone know how low it'd have to go before our eyes can't see the difference?

[Rosbjerg]

No idea - if there's latency (delays between an action and the reaction if I understand correct) I think we would sense it, no matter how "fluid" the picture is.

[Humodour]

From other thread:

 

Hello cloud gaming!

 

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0%2C28...343703%2C00.asp

 

Epic article. It's already pretty much started with things like Quake Live, but the fact that they have working models of this service is really cool to me (computer science geek that I am).

 

Really now, they're only limited by the world's Internet connections. And Scotland and South Korea just upgraded like, everyone, to something like 100mb or 1gb per second connections I don't see bandwidth being an issue for much longer (if it even is now).

 

I guess there's not much point in me pushing for games to be ported to Linux and Mac anymore as this will make such efforts obsolete. The in-built uniformity and security a service like this would provide must make game developers cream their pants.

[Humodour]

Assuming that's 80ms between 'updates', I dunno...

 

60hz (a typical monitor update rate) is 60 refreshes per second. That's why over 60fps on is meaningless. That's 1 update every 17ms. So I think you'd want to get it down to below 30ms -- 15ms ideally.

 

I mean 80ms in an MP game is pretty damn nice. But in that case your graphics update at a rate of like 0ms (instantly) so only the computations from other players are slightly delayed. In this case it'd be everything delayed. I think it would be more jittery than the same latency in an MP game.

[Moatilliatta]

No idea - if there's latency (delays between an action and the reaction if I understand correct) I think we would sense it, no matter how "fluid" the picture is.

80ms is like a good multiplayer latency. The problem is that MP games, if I remember correctly, predict your actions ahead of time and that would also be needed here and I'm not sure if that would work.

 

Also, wouldn't this excacerbate the problem of high-end users hogging all the ISPs resources and as such lead to caps that would make this kind og gaming infeasible? It could work if their compression is awesome enough but I'm sceptical.

 

Edit: I think we can say that there would be definite problems with games relying on very precise input i.e. fighting game combos and such stuff.

Edited March 24, 2009 by Moatilliatta

[Gorgon]

Is this where they supply the game and graphics processing and you only supply the input.

[Moatilliatta]

Yeah, and it is sent over the internet.

[Niten_Ryu]

I don't think current net supports this kind of system. I have 8Mbit/s connection but I rarely get uninterupted HD streams from anywhere. For videos that don't matter much as you can let it buffer some data and then start to watch again but gaming is instant. Just imagine playing something and your connection get even tiny bit of packet loss. You lost control right there and unless it's turn based game, it's quickload time.

 

And let's not forget resolutions. 1280x720 60 frames sec have been common for PC for good while now. Consoles are usually 30 frames (because developers want to add too much graphical bliss instead of higher framerates). Many PC gamers use 1920x1080 resolution (although rarely get smooth 60 fps). That's going to take huge amounts of bandwidth, no matter the compression methoid.

 

Maybe in the near future as we race towards technological singularity

[Mamoulian War]

And the next step will be Deep Packet Inspection from your ISP and an awesome product of Unlimited Gaming for only 50EUR/USD per month... and we end up with gaming with triple the price and nothing in hand... not to mention the day i see uninterupted 1080p/60 HD internet stream is the day when North Korea and South Korea make finaly a peace treaty...

 

EDIT: The traffic needed for that in 24bit quality would be 2,985,984,000 bits per second!!! So you would need to have 3Gbit connection, and over 90% of it would be dedicated only to your game... Now imagine 100+ people using it in your close neighbourhood at peak times every day... Seriously, any ISP which would allow such big traffic in their tubes without major cut from the income pie would be insane...

 

Not gonna happen ever...

 

 

EDIT2: And now imagine, that you have 1000GB monthly data transfer limit... you would use that limit in approximately 2680 seconds... which is approximately 45 minutes...

Edited March 24, 2009 by Mamoulian War

[Purkake]

I'd rather watch people play games on youtube...

 

Some of the X-Com let's plays are pretty fun.

[Zoma]

RPGcodex's Lets play TFTD thread is so much amusing to read. Feel free to sign up as the next batch of fodders! :D

[alanschu]

Assuming that's 80ms between 'updates', I dunno...

 

60hz (a typical monitor update rate) is 60 refreshes per second. That's why over 60fps on is meaningless. That's 1 update every 17ms. So I think you'd want to get it down to below 30ms -- 15ms ideally.

 

I mean 80ms in an MP game is pretty damn nice. But in that case your graphics update at a rate of like 0ms (instantly) so only the computations from other players are slightly delayed. In this case it'd be everything delayed. I think it would be more jittery than the same latency in an MP game.

 

 

60 Hz is a headache inducing refresh rate. Just sayin'.

[Syraxis]

I honestly don't see this getting farther than being considered Vaporware, anyone remember the Infinium Phantom?

[Purkake]

Assuming that's 80ms between 'updates', I dunno...

 

60hz (a typical monitor update rate) is 60 refreshes per second. That's why over 60fps on is meaningless. That's 1 update every 17ms. So I think you'd want to get it down to below 30ms -- 15ms ideally.

 

I mean 80ms in an MP game is pretty damn nice. But in that case your graphics update at a rate of like 0ms (instantly) so only the computations from other players are slightly delayed. In this case it'd be everything delayed. I think it would be more jittery than the same latency in an MP game.

 

 

60 Hz is a headache inducing refresh rate. Just sayin'.

 

Aren't most LCDs 60Hz these days? Maybe I'm just immune...

[alanschu]

Well, I still use a CRT. The backlight of the LCDs though operate at significantly higher than their refresh rate, so it's not an issue with them.

[neckthrough]

Yup, 60Hz on CRTs is agonizing. It's a lot better on LCDs, but I've noticed that even LCD panels with ~16ms response times tend to exhibit noticeable ghosting in fast games.

 

The idea is interesting, but we're quite far from realizing it IMO. I wonder if it's possible to come up with a hybrid approach, where your local client handles quick local graphics updates (bullets, spell effects, body animation) while the remote server renders the environment.

[Purkake]

Well, I still use a CRT. The backlight of the LCDs though operate at significantly higher than their refresh rate, so it's not an issue with them.

 

I don't think you can even BUY CRT anything here anymore. LCD stuff is dirt cheap.

[Hurlshort]

[Magister Lajciak]

I hope this thing fails, or else it will accelerate the game as a service rather than a game as a product transition and we will soon see no normal, online-free game products again.

 

Hmm, maybe with my insistence of having the game as a product without dependence on outside server, I am just too old for gaming and should seek a different hobby?

[Purkake]

I hope this thing fails, or else it will accelerate the game as a service rather than a game as a product transition and we will soon see no normal, online-free game products again.

 

Hmm, maybe with my insistence of having the game as a product without dependence on outside server, I am just too old for gaming and should seek a different hobby?

 

Um yeah, I think you missed your shot. Most things are tied to a server these days...

[Mamoulian War]

I hope this thing fails, or else it will accelerate the game as a service rather than a game as a product transition and we will soon see no normal, online-free game products again.

 

Hmm, maybe with my insistence of having the game as a product without dependence on outside server, I am just too old for gaming and should seek a different hobby?

 

Um yeah, I think you missed your shot. Most things are tied to a server these days...

 

Nope... only minority of the stuff released today is tied to the server... That is not true if you are only EA or Steam customer

[Purkake]

I hope this thing fails, or else it will accelerate the game as a service rather than a game as a product transition and we will soon see no normal, online-free game products again.

 

Hmm, maybe with my insistence of having the game as a product without dependence on outside server, I am just too old for gaming and should seek a different hobby?

 

Um yeah, I think you missed your shot. Most things are tied to a server these days...

 

Nope... only minority of the stuff released today is tied to the server... That is not true if you are only EA or Steam customer

 

As great as it would be to have everything DRM-free, I don't see the industry going that way. At least not yet, Ubisoft is making a nice start, though.

[Mamoulian War]

I hope this thing fails, or else it will accelerate the game as a service rather than a game as a product transition and we will soon see no normal, online-free game products again.

 

Hmm, maybe with my insistence of having the game as a product without dependence on outside server, I am just too old for gaming and should seek a different hobby?

 

Um yeah, I think you missed your shot. Most things are tied to a server these days...

 

Nope... only minority of the stuff released today is tied to the server... That is not true if you are only EA or Steam customer

 

As great as it would be to have everything DRM-free, I don't see the industry going that way. At least not yet, Ubisoft is making a nice start, though.

 

Dont count only PC gaming but gaming in general, you dont need online activation for most of the console and handheld games

Edited March 25, 2009 by Mamoulian War