Recent Isareli military action in Gaza

[Meshugger]

^oh dear...

[Kaftan Barlast]

Technicly, there is no double standard. The correct term for civilian casualties in a military conflict is "collateral damage/casualty of war". The same as dropping a bomb from a military aircraft onto your enemy is an act of war, while killig someone with a car bomb is a criminal offense/murder.

[Gorgon]

Yes, but you can't escape the question of whether it is worth it. IDF estimates 80% of casualties have been Hamas, that could add up to 1 Israeli civilian casualty per 10 Palestinian, in this particular chapter, it doesn't matter to the humanitarian discussion who is to blame, those who care about human life should simply demand restraint when civilians are at risk.

[Killian Kalthorne]

Yuusha, that would only apply if Israel was purposely targeting civilians which they aren't. They are purposely targeting Hamas leadership who have hidden themselves in the midle of civilians like cowards. Hamas rockets are targeted purposely at civilians and not at Israeli leadership or military.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Seriously, why do YOU think rocket attacks come from Gaza and not from the West Bank? Is it because the people living in Gaza are inherently "evil" (and therefore, they deserve to be massacred)? They act the way they do because they're desperate and, through the influence of Hamas, brainwashed. You've got to use reason to reach your goals, there's no point with or need to run around whacking peoples heads with clubs like this was the stone age. Right now, Israel is raising the stakes and instead of ending the conflict peacefully it will end with genocide, from one side or the other.

Could you at least study up on your facts before you start arguing? The West Bank is under control of PA, which has accepted Israel's right to exist and is willing to negotiate with Israel. Gaza is under control of Hamas, which believes in total destruction of Israel and using any means necessary to achieve that goal. That is why rockets are coming from Gaza, that is to say from Hamas. Israel will not commit genocide, because it's a civilized nation. However genocide is exactly what would happen is Hamas ever won.

 

And whoever said why doesn't Israel give all of Gaza to Palestinians, that is exactly what they did, there were no Israelis in Gaza until yesterday, and as the reward they got constant rocket attacks.

Edited January 4, 2009 by Wrath of Dagon

[Rostere]

The West Bank is under control of PA, which has accepted Israel's right to exist and is willing to negotiate with Israel. Gaza is under control of Hamas, which believes in total destruction of Israel and using any means necessary to achieve that goal.

 

Still, you're not answering my question, only reiterating that Gaza is under control by Hamas. Let's put it this way so you can understand it easier: Why are Hamas in power in Gaza and not in the West Bank?

 

And FYI: I know the current political situation in Palestinian territories perfectly well.

 

Israel will not commit genocide, because it's a civilized nation.

 

Israel is already guilty of racial discrimination (see Law of Return and this law labeling Palestinian return to Israel "Infiltration"). And even though the stated purpose of not only assassinating Hamas' leaders but also murdering their families is not terror, they are closer to genocide than you appear to believe. I would also point your attention to quotes by Benjamin Netanyahu (Israels next leader?) that speak of the race of Arabs of a "demographic threat". And that is primarily pointed at Arabs who live and work peacefully in Israel.

 

Last but not least, I'd like recommend you all to read this excellent analysis of the current situation by Rabbi Michael Lerner.

[taks]

he did answer your question you just chose not to accept nor understand it. the west bank is under control of the PA, which is currently friendly (reasonably) to israel and hence, not launching rockets in their direction. besides, it's pretty easy to determine where a rocket came from using basic math that has been around for centuries.

 

taks

[taks]

oh, and while you're at it, look up the phrase "red herring" since that's pretty much what your question regarding the source of the rockets amounts to. no surprise. i've never met an ideologue that can't argue with out that particular fish or some straw in his teeth.

 

taks

[Dark Helmet]

The West Bank is under control of PA, which has accepted Israel's right to exist and is willing to negotiate with Israel. Gaza is under control of Hamas, which believes in total destruction of Israel and using any means necessary to achieve that goal.

 

Still, you're not answering my question, only reiterating that Gaza is under control by Hamas. Let's put it this way so you can understand it easier: Why are Hamas in power in Gaza and not in the West Bank?

If I recall correctly, back when Fatah and Hamas were killing each other, Hamas had more people in Gaza, and the reverse was true in the West Bank. Fast forward a few months and Hamas decides to go back to shooting rockets at Israel since they couldn't figure out how to solve things politically. When your government is unpopular, just start a war with an even more unpopular one, and people will forget all the promises you made to get elected in the first place!

 

It's really an impossible situation, as a moderate PA government will never receive support from the Arab league, but a radical one will never accept Israel, which isn't going away any time soon.

[Volourn]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,475226,00.html

[Rostere]

he did answer your question you just chose not to accept nor understand it. the west bank is under control of the PA, which is currently friendly (reasonably) to israel and hence, not launching rockets in their direction. besides, it's pretty easy to determine where a rocket came from using basic math that has been around for centuries.

 

I need him to go further back in the chain of events, so we can continue this discussion in a meaningful way. To my original question there are several answers, of which the one I got was a trivial one. In short, it was a meaningless exchange similar to "Why did the US bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki?" "Because Harry S. Truman was the president". You've got to know the reasons, the motivations, the further context. Without several very important circumstances, Hamas would not have had any power at all, maybe not even existed today.

 

So give me a in- depth answer: Why does the rockets come from/ why does Hamas rule Gaza and not the West Bank?

 

besides, it's pretty easy to determine where a rocket came from using basic math that has been around for centuries.

 

???

[Wrath of Dagon]

The West Bank is under control of PA, which has accepted Israel's right to exist and is willing to negotiate with Israel. Gaza is under control of Hamas, which believes in total destruction of Israel and using any means necessary to achieve that goal.

 

Still, you're not answering my question, only reiterating that Gaza is under control by Hamas. Let's put it this way so you can understand it easier: Why are Hamas in power in Gaza and not in the West Bank?

 

And FYI: I know the current political situation in Palestinian territories perfectly well.

 

Why don't you ask then why did almost all the suicide bombers come from West Bank and not Gaza? The answer is at that point Palestinians were unwilling to negotiate with Israel, and right now Fatah is willing, but Hamas is not, and never will be because of their religious fanaticism. Hamas won elections in all the Palestinian territories, but militarily only won in Gaza, thus the current situation. Yes, for historical reasons Gaza is very crowded, but that's not Israel's doing. You might want to ask why did Egypt never move Palestinians out of their squalid refuge camps back when it had control of Gaza. And as I said, any efforts by Israel to improve economic conditions were met by terrorism, and allowing Palestinians to earn money in Israel was rewarded by suicide bombings.

Israel will not commit genocide, because it's a civilized nation.

Israel is already guilty of racial discrimination (see Law of Return and this law labeling Palestinian return to Israel "Infiltration"). And even though the stated purpose of not only assassinating Hamas' leaders but also murdering their families is not terror, they are closer to genocide than you appear to believe. I would also point your attention to quotes by Benjamin Netanyahu (Israels next leader?) that speak of the race of Arabs of a "demographic threat". And that is primarily pointed at Arabs who live and work peacefully in Israel.

 

Last but not least, I'd like recommend you all to read this excellent analysis of the current situation by Rabbi Michael Lerner.

Israel was founded as a Jewish state, thus the Law of Return. Allowing Palestinian refuges to return to Israel would mean Israel would cease to exist. Israel isn't going to commit suicide just to win admiration from European bleeding hearts. Anyway, once again you change subjects as part of your argument, this time away from genocide. There is no nation that goes farther than Israel to avoid civilian casualties, this against an enemy that purposefully tries to kill as many civilians as it possibly can. Edited January 5, 2009 by Wrath of Dagon

[Yuusha]

Ok, lets play your game then. (Yuusha, Brdays and Rostere)

Questions:

 

1) The palestinians in Gaza (not the West Bank) elect a party that wishes for the destruction of Israel, why is Israel still obliged to have to supply them with food, electricity and water?

 

2) What is the situation in the West Bank? Do they have the same problems of the same magnitude, do they have enough food, water and electricity? Do they have the same amount of violence? Why/why not?

 

3) Why is it that violence against the Isreali "understandable, but not forgivable", but violence against Hamas "Unforgivable state terrorism"? Shouldn't violence be condemned, whoever using it? Should peace-negotiations start with condemnation of one part only?

1. Simple, the Israelis have been besieging Gaza since 2005. The Palestinians couldn't leave or enter Gaza, they couldn't fish in their own seas, they couldn't receive financial and other humanitarian aids, they couldn't attract investors and thus building their economy etc... The Israelis control the border, the sea and the air. If a country is prevented from controlling their own borders, sea and air by another country which is militarily superior, that's called a country under occupation.

 

If the Israelis would just leave the Palestinians in Gaza alone, meaning no more blockades, military operations, kidnapping and the rest of the crap given by the Israelis, they could very well fend for themselves. Gaza, in essence, is the largest open prison in the Planet run by the Israelis.

 

2. The situation in the West bank are not that different from Gaza. The Palestinians in the west Bank can hardly move from city to city because of the fact that they're Arabs/Muslims. They have to go through checkpoints and be subjected to harassments and interrogation by the Israelis. A ride to the hospital can take three hours if you're an arab whereas if you're a Jew it'd only take about 20 minutes.

 

This is the usual story in Palestinian East Jerusalem and nearby areas of the West Bank: in an effort to discourage expansion of the Palestinian population and encourage emigration, Israel makes it almost impossible for Palestinians to obtain residential building permits; Palestinians build anyway, usually after multiple unsuccessful attempts to obtain a permit; and then the Israelis demolish the home, sometimes immediately after it's finished, sometimes months later, sometimes years later. This capriciousness is a further attempt to make life so miserable and unpredictable for Palestinians that many will leave.

 

The sheer magnitude of the oppression of the Palestinians is overwhelming... It's hard to find words to describe.

 

3. I agree that violence is not the answer. But it's unrealistic to expect the Palestinians to stop resorting to violence when they and they children witness their homes being demolished on a daily bases.

 

No justice. no peace.

[Meshugger]

1) I understand that sentiment somewhat. But why is Egypt keeping such a tight control over its border? Aren't they allowed to supply any supplies from its border?

 

2) The jewish settlements can be abolished just as easy as they got there, which i agree upon (or simply become palestinian citizens, like the arabs in israel that already make up to 20% of the population). However, there's little or no plan on how to do it, and it requires the cooperation with the Palestinian authorities as well. Here lies the problem, PLO with Abbas are ready to negotiate a timetable in a broader sense. Hamas is less flexible, or so to say. Adding fuel to the fire, there has been a civil war between PLO's fatah movement and Hamas since the elections. Looking from the outside, there is no govermental authority to negotiate with, nor any spokesperson that would represent the palestinian people.

 

Abbas may have a problem with corruption, but at least he keeps his fatah movement under control. I would even bet that if fatah were still in control over Gaza (and i mean the sole autharian body, no rocketshooting from independent Hamas-supporters), IDF wouldn't have gone there in the first place. Has Olmert said that he is ready to negotiate about the 1967 borders? Doesn't sound to unreasonable to me.

 

3) States usually conduct war at each other yes, but the i do not see as the whole palestinian state is performing an act of war against israel. Gandhi showed the world that it is possible for the individual to achieve independence without any form of violence. And he did it with a much larger population ot boot.

 

I am still waiting for something similar to happen in the middle east, as a compromise in the usual diplomatic sense seems too unrealistic.

Edited January 5, 2009 by Meshugger

[Killian Kalthorne]

Yuusha, you live in a fantasy world. If Israel left Gaza alone, Hamas would use that time to arm and supply itself and continue its attacks. It is a terrorist organization that has stated that its whole purpose is to destroy Israel. How the hell do you expect Israel to respond to that? Just let Hamas keep on attacking them with rockets and suicide bombers? You say poor Palestinians but it was these poor Palestinians who chose Hamas to represent them, they chose a terrorist organization who swore to destroy Israel. Again, how should Israel respond to that? If someone swore to wipe you out of existence do would you just let them, Yuusha?

 

WOULD YOU!?!?!?

 

Nearly every single Arab nation has leaders who want to wipe out Israel. Iran, Syria, Lebenon, and so forth and so on. Under this constant threat against them how do you expect them to react?

Edited January 5, 2009 by Killian Kalthorne

[Humodour]

I fully support the (reasonably) level-headed and democratic Palestinians of the West Bank, and thus (obviously) the Palestinian right to self-determination.

 

What I don't support is an Iranian-backed terrorist organisation deliberately attacking its neighbour to prevent any peace settlement being made. Hamas can burn.

 

The scale of the loss of life is deplorable, but it's also a miracle that the Gaza casualties have been 75% Hamas militia so far. Would that Israeli had the resources and time to assassinate or jail Hamas hard-liners one by one without any loss of civilian life, but alas, that's not an option. I don't pretend to know the answer, but I do know what's not the answer: sticking your head in the sand and hoping the guys with guns and bombs will go away (a.k.a. blind pacifism).

[Rostere]

Why don't you ask then why did almost all the suicide bombers come from West Bank and not Gaza?

 

I'd like to make that came, keeping in mind the current rate of suicide bombers from the West Bank. Most of the suicide bombers in the West Bank targetted Jewish settlements, settlements which by the way are illegal under international law. The reason not as many suicide bombers come from Gaza is that Gaza has never had as many Israeli settlers, and those few who had occupied land there were forcibly removed by the Israeli government. So in short, since Palestinians and Israelis have not been living side to side in Gaza, and that is the reason there were fewer suicide bombs there.

 

Yes, for historical reasons Gaza is very crowded, but that's not Israel's doing.

 

Of the 1.4 million people living in Gaza, about 1 million are refugees, who were either expelled and not allowed to return by Israel or urged to leave by Egypt, fearing a massacre either by Jewish Orthodox militias or simply one from being caught in the crossfire. There are examples of all of these: check this. So, I would say that the fact that Gaza is crowded with people is very much Israel's doing.

 

You might want to ask why did Egypt never move Palestinians out of their squalid refuge camps back when it had control of Gaza. And as I said, any efforts by Israel to improve economic conditions were met by terrorism, and allowing Palestinians to earn money in Israel was rewarded by suicide bombings.

 

Back to where? If you've not yet realized that fact, Gaza is basically a large squalid refugee camp. You know, Israeli refugees of Arab descent are not allowed to come back again (not that their old houses aren't bulldozed to the ground anyway).

 

I've honestly not heard of any attempts by Israel to improve economic conditions in Gaza. Care to elaborate?

 

The answer is at that point Palestinians were unwilling to negotiate with Israel, and right now Fatah is willing, but Hamas is not, and never will be because of their religious fanaticism. Hamas won elections in all the Palestinian territories, but militarily only won in Gaza, thus the current situation.

 

Well, mostly true. But still, the reason to why Hamas won in Gaza and not in the West Bank? Perhaps... That the low standard of living caused by recent events made the Gazans support more radical political elements?

 

Allowing Palestinian refuges to return to Israel would mean Israel would cease to exist. Israel isn't going to commit suicide just to win admiration from European bleeding hearts.

 

Look, Sweden recieves a lot of refugees (immigration is about three times as high as the US, if you compare it to the total population), and I'm certainly not ceasing to exist. On the other hand, I get new friends, kebab and Albanian folk music. Last time someone tried to create a country where the inhabitants' rights were judged by their race, things went bad. But I guess to some people, crazy ideas like that will never cease to exist. And yes lol, I'd prefer a heart that is bleeding over none at all.

 

Anyway, once again you change subjects as part of your argument, this time away from genocide. There is no nation that goes farther than Israel to avoid civilian casualties, this against an enemy that purposefully tries to kill as many civilians as it possibly can.

 

I was showing actions and attitudes which were close to genocide (Different races have different rights + one is looked upon as a "threat").

 

The emphasized sentence makes me sick to even read... You obviously have no concern for other people's right to live at all. You should read the different news reports where Israeli military are reported firing on ambulances who try to get to injured (or dead?) civilians. Don't you have a family yourself? Can't you relate in ANY way to what's happening?

[Killian Kalthorne]

Those ambulances that they are firing on are more than likely run by the Hamas military, working to pick up wounded Hamas fighters and its leadership.

[Guard Dog]

A two minute history of the whole Israel Palestine mess:

[Aristes]

Allowing Palestinian refuges to return to Israel would mean Israel would cease to exist. Israel isn't going to commit suicide just to win admiration from European bleeding hearts.

 

Look, Sweden recieves a lot of refugees (immigration is about three times as high as the US, if you compare it to the total population), and I'm certainly not ceasing to exist. On the other hand, I get new friends, kebab and Albanian folk music. Last time someone tried to create a country where the inhabitants' rights were judged by their race, things went bad. But I guess to some people, crazy ideas like that will never cease to exist. And yes lol, I'd prefer a heart that is bleeding over none at all.

 

How insufferably foolish. Do you contend that allowing Palestinian immigration into Israel is the same as allowing immigration of all sorts into Sweden? Are you trying to establish some sort of parity between the dangers facing Israel and those facing Sweden? It's hard to answer your statement because it's so absolutely ridiculous on its face. Furthermore, the greater good in the long run is served by letting your brain run the show. Everyone should have a heart, but not one so big it makes all the decisions. Your heart, well fed and safe up in Sweden, might be big as all outdoors. However, the hearts of the terrorists are certainly not filled with brotherly love. Earlier, folks cited the safety of passing such judgements on the Israelis from the security of your European homes. There were plenty of responses, but all of them sound hollow. I'd rather you drop all pretense and become an avowed apologist for Islamic terrorists than try to claim the high ground.

 

Anyway, once again you change subjects as part of your argument, this time away from genocide. There is no nation that goes farther than Israel to avoid civilian casualties, this against an enemy that purposefully tries to kill as many civilians as it possibly can.

 

I was showing actions and attitudes which were close to genocide (Different races have different rights + one is looked upon as a "threat").

 

The emphasized sentence makes me sick to even read... You obviously have no concern for other people's right to live at all. You should read the different news reports where Israeli military are reported firing on ambulances who try to get to injured (or dead?) civilians. Don't you have a family yourself? Can't you relate in ANY way to what's happening?

 

Do you really think that, with all the fighting, Israel could not have killed more civilians if they had so intended? Do you even recognize the terrorists' strategy of hiding in and among civilians to the greatest extent possible in order to create more civilian casualties? Will you even concede that folks who have willingly put Hamas in place must expect some repercussions from actions taken by Hamas? I will go so far as to say that you make your statements in good faith. You believe your way will result in lasting peace. However, your solutions, crafted by your heavy heart, are no solution at all. Apparently that sickness you feel when reading posts is spreading, because your position makes me ill.

[Rostere]

How insufferably foolish. Do you contend that allowing Palestinian immigration into Israel is the same as allowing immigration of all sorts into Sweden? Are you trying to establish some sort of parity between the dangers facing Israel and those facing Sweden? It's hard to answer your statement because it's so absolutely ridiculous on its face. Furthermore, the greater good in the long run is served by letting your brain run the show. Everyone should have a heart, but not one so big it makes all the decisions. Your heart, well fed and safe up in Sweden, might be big as all outdoors. However, the hearts of the terrorists are certainly not filled with brotherly love. Earlier, folks cited the safety of passing such judgements on the Israelis from the security of your European homes. There were plenty of responses, but all of them sound hollow. I'd rather you drop all pretense and become an avowed apologist for Islamic terrorists than try to claim the high ground.

 

Actually, the way I chose to formulate my response was to address the notion that "since Israel is a Jewish state, if Israel does not have predominantly Jewish population, it will cease to exist". You will find ideas similar to that one of you look around a bit on the Internet. If "Wrath of Dagon" (or anyone else!) is no adherent to that way of thinking, I am happy.

 

Besides, suicide bombing and the kind of conflict we're seeing now (or have been seeing, lately) did not exist in the Israeli- Palestine region until around the mid- eighties. Letting people back, as long as the general population is under police control, would not have been to large a problem, at least judging from the Arabs who had not been forced to leave Israel. We're discussing events that happened way early - I agree that you can't just open the borders with no restrictions today, but part of the reason for that lies with that Israel did not do so from the very beginning. If anything like that had happened, the circumstances today might have been entirely different. But maybe even that would have been impossible considering that Israeli settlers had already razed so many of the villages and built their own homes on top of them, at least I was surprised when I first learnt of how fast that happened.

 

You could ask yourself why not more of the Arabs currently living in Israel are firing rockets and all that.

 

Do you really think that, with all the fighting, Israel could not have killed more civilians if they had so intended? Do you even recognize the terrorists' strategy of hiding in and among civilians to the greatest extent possible in order to create more civilian casualties? Will you even concede that folks who have willingly put Hamas in place must expect some repercussions from actions taken by Hamas? I will go so far as to say that you make your statements in good faith. You believe your way will result in lasting peace. However, your solutions, crafted by your heavy heart, are no solution at all. Apparently that sickness you feel when reading posts is spreading, because your position makes me ill.

 

With all I've seen on the Internet, the IDF would not stop at bombing a (Palestinian) kindergarten if they knew a terrorist was hiding there. They are utterly careless about who they are killing, or maybe they don't understand that killing (civilians) will only bring more bloodshed, and bring everyone farther from peace. Do you believe that it is of the essence that you kill civilians, if you want to achieve peace? No? Then, you do at least in part agree with me, only that I feel this entire business has gone crazy more than you do.

 

Those ambulances that they are firing on are more than likely run by the Hamas military, working to pick up wounded Hamas fighters and its leadership.

 

I think three ambulances has been somehow attacked - two was fired at by helicopters and one by a tank (see here)- with resulting casualties. One of these, I'm sure, belonged to an organization other than Hamas. I don't know of the other two though.

[Yuusha]

@Killian Kalthorne

Yuusha, you live in a fantasy world. If Israel left Gaza alone, Hamas would use that time to arm and supply itself and continue its attacks. It is a terrorist organization that has stated that its whole purpose is to destroy Israel. How the hell do you expect Israel to respond to that? Just let Hamas keep on attacking them with rockets and suicide bombers? You say poor Palestinians but it was these poor Palestinians who chose Hamas to represent them, they chose a terrorist organization who swore to destroy Israel. Again, how should Israel respond to that? If someone swore to wipe you out of existence do would you just let them, Yuusha?

 

WOULD YOU!?!?!?

 

What is this? FOX News? What, you gonna get combative now, start questioning my morals, knowledge and credibility. Typical Fox fascism.Stop framing questions to affect the outcome. It would only kill this discussion.

 

Anyway, Hamas as I've stated time and time again, is not a terrorist organization, and there are historical, political and psychological dimensions to this statement, which we must work through patiently, if we are to arrive at a satisfactory answer.

 

First of all, it is useful to recall why the apartheid/terrorist state of Israel is thought of or remembered with such revulsion. Images of the brutal treatment of Palestinians, especially in Gaza recently, provokes sorrow and deep disgust. That is why even after so many decades of Israel's existence, our conception of Israelis is of men and women that indiscriminately demolish the Palestinians' homes and even kill them off like some sort of meaningless cattle.

 

If you really want to have a somewhat meaningful discussion, you have to bear in mind that the origins of this conflict didn't just start 6 months or six years ago, this conflict is decades old.

 

Nearly every single Arab nation has leaders who want to wipe out Israel. Iran, Syria, Lebenon, and so forth and so on. Under this constant threat against them how do you expect them to react?

 

You ever wondered why this is the case? Do you really think that the Arab world are inherently evil or 'anti-semitic.' If you're really interested in what's really going on and not just what you've been told all your life you might wanna visit http://www.ifamericansknew.org and study the origins of this conflict.

------------------------------------

 

@Guard Dog:

A two minute history of the whole Israel Palestine mess:

 

That's not the whole story and I think you know it. Lemme give you another imaginary story:

 

Imagine that Africa has become rich and powerful, and that Euroope has become poor, divided and without real independence. Imagine next that, tired of being repeatedly massacred, the Tutsis decide to found a national home elsewhere. Certain of their leaders designate Wallonia, in Belgium, as that new home. Other Africans, to solve what some call the "Tutsi problem", approve of the project. Thus a flood of Tutsis pack up, weapons and all, and begin to settle in that region, while proclaiming that the people already living there have to go somewhere else. With their wealth, their determination and their weapons, the Tutsis rapidly manage to take possession of the farms, forests and towns and chase away most of the natives, either by legal means or by intimidation. A large part of Wallonia becomes a new Tutsi State, which boasts of being particularly well governed and democratic. All of Africa looks on in admiration.

 

However, to the surprise of the Africans, most of the Walloons are against that arrangement. Bewildered, sometimes supported by other Europeans who are nevertheless divided and whose leaders are weak and indecisive, they engage in several last ditch fights which only allow the Tutsi State to expand. The Africans can't understand why the Belgians and other Europeans are unable to appreciate the superiority of the system introduced onto their continent by the Tutsis. While Tutsis from all over the world are invited to come and settle, it is explained to the inhabitants who are being pushed out that there are other French-speaking States where they can go. All those who, in Europe or elsewhere, denounce that situation risk being called "anti-Tutsi" racists. When, parked on various scraps of ex-Wallonia, completely surrounded by the Tutsi army, a certain number of natives throw themselves into violent and desperate acts, commentators vie with each other to come up with theories on the peculiarities of Walloon culture that push them to such fanaticism.

 

It is doubtful that our principal concern, if we found ourselves in such a situation, would be to "put an end to the violence" of the original inhabitants of Wallonia, or to be fair to both sides, or to convince all the Belgians, as well as the other Europeans, to guarantee first and foremost the security of the Tutsi State within "safe and recognized borders". And yet, the responsibility of Belgium in the misfortune of Tutsis, through its colonial policy, is incomparably greater than that, non-existent, of the Palestinians in the persecution of the Jews in Europe.

 

The aim of this fantasy is not at all to compare or to pretend to establish any equivalence between two tragic histories, that of the Jews or that of the Tutsis, but solely to illustrate the fact that the attitude of the Arabs toward Israel is not necessarily due to a strange and violent culture or religion, but is no different from the attitude anyone might have if put in a situation similar to theirs . It is above all the situation that is strange. Recognizing it doesn't mean that one can or should undo what has been done in the past . But if one wants to arrive at a genuine peace, not only between Arabs and Israelis, but also between the West and the Arab-Muslim world, then one must begin by understanding why the others see the world as they do, and by honestly distinguishing the aggressor from the aggressed.

 

This fantasy is also also meant to illustrate the fact that, so long as one sees the conflict in terms of the war against terrorism, of conflicts between States, or even of human rights violations, an essential element is being left out, that is, the fact that the State of Israel is a continuation of European colonialism. It is that aspect (often invisible in Europe) that makes it unbearable to so many people in the Arab-Muslim world, and in the rest of the Third World. Any child in Rabat knows that if the State of Israel could be created in the way and place where it was done, it was because the local population that paid the price of the operation was made up of Arabs (like himself) and not of Europeans organized in powerful States who considered themselves superior. And that is difficult to accept.

 

Oh and one other thing, did you hear about how Cynthia McKinney's boat was rammed by the Israelis in international waters?

 

Wow... It's the USS Liberty all over again. So what say you Americans? You gonna keep letting the Israelis push you around like this? What is this hold they have on your government?

[Killian Kalthorne]

Hamas is a terrorist organization. If an organization uses terrorist tactics, like Hamas does, it is a terrorist organization. Suicide bombings is a tactic Hamas uses and it is a terrorist tactic. I can't believe you can say Hamas is not a terrorist organization with a straight face. They are terrorists. I don't care about Hamas' history, its politics, or its psychology.

 

THEY USE TERROR AS A WEAPON! THEY USE SUICIDE BOMBERS! THEY ARE TERRORISTS!

 

The Palestinians in Gaza had a chance for peace back in 2000 and they blew it, and now it is time to pay for the consequences.

 

I do know the conflict started back in 1967 with the Six Day War, a war many Arab nations were a part of. They threatened Israel by amping they forces along the borders, making threats and demands on Israel. Getting in Israel's face, wanting to fight. Well, Israel gave them that fight and won. If the Arabs back then just minded their own business and not threaten Israel to the point that made them feel they needed to do attack to protect themselves we wouldn't be in this mess.

 

As the old saying goes, don't start a fight you can't finish.

[Volourn]

"Anyway, Hamas as I've stated time and time again, is not a terrorist organization"

 

Yes, yes they are. They also have atendency to murder Palestinians who disagree with them. Not exactly pro Palestian group. Hamas has done but make Palestine's a worse place to live.

 

 

 

"You ever wondered why this is the case? Do you really think that the Arab world are inherently evil or 'anti-semitic.'"

 

That's funny consideirng you want to believe that all of Isreal is inherently evil, are anti Arab inherently, and other such nonsense.

 

 

Sorry, but as for being anti Semetic considering the crap that the Arab world in the ME spew; it's no wonder people view them as anti semitic and evil. Afterall, Arab leader after Arab leader have said some awesome stuff like how the Holocaust didn't happen, and that Isreal should be wiped out. Let's not forget the historical mistreatment of jews 9and many other minorities) throughout the history of Arab held lands. Not to mention the mass murders they commit against each other.

 

Most Arabs, like most isrealis, and heck most people want peace. Sadly, it only takes a minority to make peace hard to achieve.

 

And, just to be clear, Hamas does NOT want peace with Isreal. they want to destroy Isreal. this is one of their most fundamental goals of this terrorist organization yet you continue to deny this fact. That's rather delusional since those are the words of Hamas themselves. But, hey, let Hamas target buses full of civilians - its only Isrealis anyways. Hey, let's Hamas slaughter Palestinians because they don't kiss Hamas' butt. Those killed by Hamas are betrayers anyways and deserve to be slaughtered because nobody can have a different opinion than hamas. And, if a Palestinian actually wants peace with isreal, OMG!, he deserves to die. That's what Hamas is about.

 

P.S. As Killian mentioned, the Arab nations fought Isreal, and loss and consequences of said loss was the lost of land. This is how countries are made including Arab lands. Palestine was NOT originally home to the Palestinians.

Edited January 6, 2009 by Volourn

[Aristes]

"Actually, the way I chose to formulate my response was to address the notion that "since Israel is a Jewish state, if Israel does not have predominantly Jewish population, it will cease to exist". You will find ideas similar to that one of you look around a bit on the Internet. If "Wrath of Dagon" (or anyone else!) is no adherent to that way of thinking, I am happy."

 

Now that I understand your position a bit better, I'm less hostile to it. I am, however, no more aligned with it than before. The point isn't that Israel would not benefit from diversity. Israel cannot open its borders and invite diversity without welcoming their own demise. The difference between Sweden and Israel is the motive behind potential open border immigration. One would assume the folks moving to Sweden would have a variety of motives, such as employment, education, or political asylum. Folks moving freely into Israel would undoubtedly include many whose primary/only motive would be the destruction of the state. It's not the same thing and there is no way to compare immigration to western democracy with immigration to Israel.

 

As far as targetting civilians goes, I still think it's farcical to say that Israel would gladly fire on civilians in order to kill terrorists when Hamas gladly targets civilians without regard to military targets.

 

My biggest beef is with folks who act as if anyone who doesn't castigate Israel revels in the bloodshed of all arabs. This is simply not true. Imagine for a moment that you're safe and happy there in, I dunno, Stockholm, when a group of people avow that their one unifying wish is the destruction of your community. They hate you with an unreasoning passion. Lacking the military strength to attack you directly, they undertake a variety of terrorist acts such as blowing up civilians with car bombs and, when you have taken measures to protect yourselves against such methods, lob missiles at civilians in your city. So ardent is their loathing that they find willing recruits to sacrifice their lives in order to kill your fellow citizens. There is no negotiation and it is quickly and abundantly clear that they will gladly kill as many of you or all of you given the chance. You and some of your fellow citizens, feeling the depths of your hearts, advocate negotiation and concession. That approach actually holds some sway with a portion of the people, but as these attempts repeatedly fail to achieve any results and the attacks continue, you and likeminded people find your position undermined. Unfortunately, people outside of Sweden, seeing that the Swedes are better organized, better armed, and have a distinct advantage militarily heap scorn on you and your fellow citizens. The terrorists hide themselves amongst "civilians." Sadly, many of these civilians have actively and overtly supported the terrorist organization that currently targets your people. As time progresses, you fight back as best you can and try to carve out some normalcy. It's distressing to you that folks who have never faced such recalcitrant foes can so easily condemn you. It's as if you are held responsible for being the victim of unmitigated hatred and violence. Because no gesture of peace suffices to cool the unwavering insistance on the destruction of your people, the folks who advocate a military response gain power in your community. When you respond, because your self avowed and sworn enemy hides themselves in and amongst civilians, you cannot help but cause civilian casualties. You are embittered because of this outrageous double standard by which you are judged evil for harming civilians whereas your self identified enemy targets civilians as a matter of preference. However, no matter how many people pass judgement on you, you cannot fail in your resolve because, unlike those people in far away places, you know that your resolve is the only bulwark that stands between you and the complete destruction of your community.

 

I don't have any personal animosity for you, Rostere. I mean that sincerely. However, I despise your position. Poverty and despair do not exculpate Hamas from responsibility for the current military conflict. It's hard for me to condemn Israel for their heavy handed response, and I believe their response can sometimes be heavy handed, when the enemies of Israel actively, overtly, and unapologetically desire nothing less than the complete destruction of the state.

Edited January 6, 2009 by Aristes