Wootastic

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

So, we've seen that there is dual-wielding of small weapons in the game. One question I have is whether there are benefits of using, say, one pistol instead of two, such as increased accuracy.

[J.E. Sawyer]

All submachineguns are dual-wielded. All pistols are used singly. Submachineguns dump ammo everywhere and are not accurate at all. Pistols are quite accurate. That's a bit of an oversimplification, but yes there are times when you would definitely rather use a pistol than the submachineguns.

[Pop]

That's an interesting choice.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

That's an interesting choice.

 

That's a pleasant way of putting it I think it's criminal to not allow going John Woo with berettas, but thanks for the info.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

There's also the iconic image of the counterterrorist operative with a single SMG to consider.

[Zoma]

Submachineguns dump ammo everywhere and are not accurate at all.

 

I assume its meant for a close combat weapon then. But how would it compare to the role of Shotguns if that is the case?

[Alvin Nelson]

SMG is a spray of bullets, while a shotgun is just the one big shot.

 

A spray of bullets is fun.

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

What about heavy machine guns? Or heavy weapons for that matter?

 

 

Wouldn't heavy machine guns also play the role of spraying bullets?

[Llyranor]

I was planning on dual-wielding UZIs anyway ^_^

 

I might have a pistol as a backup, or maybe focus on melee. Hmmmm.....

[Wrath of Dagon]

Sub-machine guns are both more accurate and more powerful than pistols in single shot mode, hence their use by commando teams.

[mkreku]

Sub-machine guns are both more accurate and more powerful than pistols in single shot mode, hence their use by commando teams.

You can't make a sweeping statement like that. Most submachine guns use the same ammo as pistols and are in the same weight category (almost, just a tad bit heavier) and the damage they do is roughly equal. Accuracy is also basically the same as with pistols (if held one-handed), except some submachine guns have a shoulder support which obviously makes them easier to aim with.

 

But, for example, a Micro Uzi is neither more powerful nor more accurate than your ordinary pistol.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Submachine guns have a longer barrel, thus are more powerful and more accurate, even using the same ammo. Don't know specifically about MicroUzi.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

I think Micro uzis are generally considered Personal Defense Weapons rather than actual SMGs. That said, from the screenshots, it looks like most of APs "SMGs" are PDWs.

 

Come on though, let's stay on topic of why mandatory dual wielding is a bad idea

[Zoma]

Game mechanic wise, it makes sense since dual SMGs plays the role of close combat rapid fire weapon as the alternative of a shotgun. Integration wise into the game, it feels out of place.

 

I'm certainly not sure what kind of atmosphere Obsidian is trying to capture for Alpha Protocol to be honest. They mentioned Kill Bill for their villains, that's fine. But what about the protagonist? Obsidian said its the 3 JBs as a role of a modern or a super spy. Now even James Bond himself as a super spy doesn't use dual wield SMGs in any of the movies which tarnishes his image as being 'slick'.

 

Seriously Obsidian, dual SMGs in my opinion only has its place in Action focused games. You may as well give MT the ability to do "Gun fu" moves like Max Payne to give MT the maximum kewl factor. Even Metal Gear Solid, despite its over the top plots and characters, sets its combat tone into believeable with some fictional elements like the camo suit. But you'll never see Snake dual wielding weapons.

 

Regardless, either way Obsidian has to explain convincingly in the game why MT decides to use unconventional method of utilizing SMGs in the game since not even Commandos are trained to use 2 SMGs in combat in the real life counter part.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Sounds like dual-wielding is purely cosmetic anyway. Sure no one uses dual SMG's in real life, but this is a game and they want it to look cool. It's just like no one hand carries a heavy machine gun like Rambo, but it's OK in a movie, and this game isn't any more realistic.

[AnRCHistIV]

On the argument about whether SMG's are more accurate than pistols, that is completely dependant on the weapon. The MP10 is more accurate then most, if not all pistols, but then you have the Micro Uzi on the other side of the scale, that is signifcantly less accurate. While I'll admit I'm not a weapons expert, My understanding is that most weapon types have exceptions and anomalies that makes blanket statements about accuracy between two types of guns without specifics somewhat moot. However, in a game you have a limited amount of time to add weapons and types, so reasonably Devs generally create types of weapons that follow a standard such as all pistols short to medium range, all shotguns short, etc.

 

In the case of Alpha Protocol, while if you do use an SMG it's dual wield, you have multiple weapon options, so you never have to do that if it doesn't fit with what kind of spy you created. For my first character, I'll probably end up going pistols and assault rifles, single suppressed shots to the head, and never get up close and messy, because that's how I like it.

 

That's my 2c anyways.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

While saying "I just won't use them" is a practical answer, it sort of slides around the awkward point that several people (which constitutes a huge number on these forums) dislike the idea of mandatory akimbo PDWs.

 

Also, does nobody else want the option of akimbo pistols?

[Wrath of Dagon]

On the argument about whether SMG's are more accurate than pistols, that is completely dependant on the weapon. The MP10 is more accurate then most, if not all pistols, but then you have the Micro Uzi on the other side of the scale, that is signifcantly less accurate.

Huh, where do you get that? Generally, no weapon is less accurate and weaker than a pistol.

[Zoma]

The length of the barrel affects the accuracy. Hence sniper rifles are long in length. The strength depends on the caliber size of the weapon. .50 used by desert eagles are capable of smashing through concrete layers whilst a 9mm pistol doesn't.

 

Of course a gun is still a gun and is capable of killing anything unarmored despite the bullet type. But the efficiency and effective range factors are dependent on the category of the gun(Pistol, SMG, Assault Rifles, Sniper Riflesm Machine Guns), Bullet caliber types and others that a gun expert may know better than me.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

As Zoma mentioned, "power" is primarily a function of ammo. Keep in mind that it isn't just bullet width that matters, but also length. A 0.22 has about the same diameter as 5.56mm AR ammo, but the 5.56 ammo is longer and hence has more mass. Muzzle length also increases muzzle velocity and spin of similar ammo, which can lead to improved accuracy as well as additional stopping power. The heavier the bullet is and the faster it goes, the more powerful the gun. Obviously, wound properties and penetration come in play when shooting people, but most games don't pay much attention to that.

 

But, seriously, what does this have to do with dual wielding? I think the point has been made that SMGs/PDWs can be just as accurate as pistols, and that's pretty much the relevant consideration.

 

The gameplay question at stake is: are spray & pray dual-wielders the only viable characters for SMG use? If so, why limit the "SMGs" to that application?

[Joseph Bulock]

The length of the barrel affects the accuracy. Hence sniper rifles are long in length. The strength depends on the caliber size of the weapon. .50 used by desert eagles are capable of smashing through concrete layers whilst a 9mm pistol doesn't.

 

Of course a gun is still a gun and is capable of killing anything unarmored despite the bullet type. But the efficiency and effective range factors are dependent on the category of the gun(Pistol, SMG, Assault Rifles, Sniper Riflesm Machine Guns), Bullet caliber types and others that a gun expert may know better than me.

 

Length of barrel is not the only factor in accuracy. If we're talking about ideal (ie. non-practical) condition, then the barrel length and quality of manufacturing do play a large roll in the accuracy. Now when a weapon is used in combat, other things become very important, such as the amount of kick/recoil the weapon produces, the ease and quality of the sighting of the weapon, etc. This is not to say that barrel length isn't important, but it isn't the only factor, and to claim such over simplifies the concept of accuracy a great deal. The quality of the barrel can be as important as the length. To make a ridiculous comparison, any pistol on the market will be more accurate than a colonial era musket, due to the fact that the concept of rifling hadn't been introduced, so no spin was imparted on the round by the barrel.

 

Also, the gun is a gun comment doesn't really work either. Any weapon with a .22 caliber round is actually going to have a hard time killing someone unless you manage to hit the most vital of areas. That being said, the .22 round does not see a lot of combat use.

[Joseph Bulock]

As Zoma mentioned, "power" is primarily a function of ammo. Keep in mind that it isn't just bullet width that matters, but also length. A 0.22 has about the same diameter as 5.56mm AR ammo, but the 5.56 ammo is longer and hence has more mass. Muzzle length also increases muzzle velocity and spin of similar ammo, which can lead to improved accuracy as well as additional stopping power. The heavier the bullet is and the faster it goes, the more powerful the gun. Obviously, wound properties and penetration come in play when shooting people, but most games don't pay much attention to that.

 

But, seriously, what does this have to do with dual wielding? I think the point has been made that SMGs/PDWs can be just as accurate as pistols, and that's pretty much the relevant consideration.

 

The gameplay question at stake is: are spray & pray dual-wielders the only viable characters for SMG use? If so, why limit the "SMGs" to that application?

 

 

To answer your gameplay question, it gave the SMG it's own unique role. If the SMG was just a more powerful, faster firing pistol, it would only be a baby, and inferior, assault rifle. By letting it be a rapid firing, but only semi-accurate weapon, it gives the weapon it's own unique role. It also gave the weapon a flavor that the SMG abilities could build on.

[Zoma]

You could give SMGs unique customizations I believe, or simply different kind of guns than the typical MP5s. For instance the P90 and the MP7 in which both have high ammo capacity for their magazines. If I'm not mistaken, submachine guns tend to have lower recoil due to the smaller ammo caliber.

 

So this itself gives SMGs the differences compared to the high powered assault rifles which may have higher recoils. So in the end SMG plays a better role for CQC due to its compact size, accurate with controllable recoils unlike the assault rifles which plays better role in outdoor combat than indoor.

 

Anyway, what's done already done. I can only hope Obsidian managed to find a convincing reason in game why MT uses duel wield SMGs without looking out of character or place.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

I don't actually disagree with the idea that SMGs should be good for spray & pray, though I don't see what that has to do with dual wielding them either.

[Joseph Bulock]

I don't actually disagree with the idea that SMGs should be good for spray & pray, though I don't see what that has to do with dual wielding them either.

 

Dual wielding does little things like giving the SMG twice as much magazine capacity, and justifying the guns spitting out an awesome amount of lead. It also looks really cool in a very iconic action movie sort of way.