US Presidential Elections 3

[Trenitay]

Im not sure you're taking into account at least an hour, usually more, grading papers at home.

Edited November 19, 2008 by awsomeness

[Gfted1]

Thats not the point. A "working year" is 2080 hours (52 weeks x 40 hours per week). Whether you take work home, work longer hours because your job requires it, get an extra day off, call in sick, take vacation, etc... is all immaterial. If you are on a salary you pay doesnt change no matter how much or little you work. So with that in mind, a teachers "working year" is approximately 1440 hours due to the fact they have the summer break off. AFAIK, any teaching, coaching, etc... that occurs over the summer is voluntary and compensated with additional monies because, well, its a second job.

[Trenitay]

Wait, you said they worked 480 hours less than the average worker. But 40 hours a month times 10 months is 400 hours. That leaves only 80 hours not 280.

[Gfted1]

*sigh* I guess I sould have seen this degenerating into niggling over hours. My 280 hours estimate was based on a 9 month working year for teachers which Hurlshot has corrected to a 10 month working year.

[taks]

hey, i wasn't niggling hours. i think the WSJ incorrectly assigns hours worked, in general, on an assumption that "all professions take work home" (or most), which is disingenuous, and that they all have 3 months off over the summer. first, i think that the "second job" of working over the summer is part of what gets reported as "teacher salary," regardless of what the WSJ author thinks. second, no way they put in less than 40-hour work week, at least, the good ones don't. take into account everything, the assertion that teachers make, on average, $34/hour is ridiculous. the article also assumes that teachers only have a BS or BA degree, which is disingenuous as well, as hurlshot noted.

 

i think, btw, that the purpose of the article was to shoot down attempts to provide more funding for teachers*, so there may be some political bias in the piece (conservative in this case, or libertarian at least). lies, damn lies and statistics and all that, IMO. i agree the problems with our education system can't be solved with more money, we need to fix how the money that's available is spent, which is poorly at the moment. there's only one way to make it efficient.

 

taks

 

* i'm curious: do private school teachers make more/less/the same as public school teachers?

Edited November 19, 2008 by taks

[Hurlshort]

* i'm curious: do private school teachers make more/less/the same as public school teachers?

 

Depends on the school, but typically private is considerably less. The salary level might be similar, but usually health care and retirement funds in private schools are not anywhere near what you get from a public school.

 

My first teaching job was at a private school. The pros were I had 10 students in my class, I had no teaching credential, and I had some freedom with the curriculum.

 

The negatives were I made $11 an hour, had no teaching credential, and had no idea what curriculum I should be teaching.

 

 

But that's a example of a bad private school, there are many private schools that attempt to hire credentialed teachers and pay them decent salaries. They won't make more than public school teachers, but if you are a devout Catholic then a Catholic school might be your preference to teach at. I've done workshops with private school teachers and many are above and beyond dedicated to teaching.

[taks]

ok, not a surprise and what i would have expected... i'm guessing the high-end private schools, i.e., the ones that presidents send their children, hire credentialed teachers, and probably pay more as well. there aren't many of that type, however.

 

i just got off the phone with my "boss" at the college where i teach (lab instructor, hardly teaching, more like baby-sitting). i may pick up a class next semester, too, which would be cool since it is a hands-on class. i know from experience that college professors, tenured, with a PhD obviously, make significantly less than their working counterparts. they work waaaay more than 40 hours per week, and are expected to pick up a certain amount of work over the summers as well, but often do a lot of contract work to help their bottom line.

 

taks

[Gfted1]

i know from experience that college professors, tenured, with a PhD obviously, make significantly less than their working counterparts.

 

I defer to your experience but according to this chart they arent doing too bad. Of course Im not sure what youre referring to by "working counterparts".

[Hurlshort]

I'd imagine it depends on what university. A Harvard professor is probably doing pretty well compared to a state school professor. But I'm not all that familiar with college level pay, I know it's tough to get tenure.

[Walsingham]

I'd consider being a teacher, even for low pay, but I can't stand the indiscipline. It's not that I can't command discipline in a class, I'm good at it, but it's a waste of time and energy. Most of my teaching energy now goes into my staff.

[taks]

I defer to your experience but according to this chart they arent doing too bad. Of course Im not sure what youre referring to by "working counterparts".

working counterparts would be people with similar educations in the industry. i would be a working counterpart, for example, with the same level of education and experience as a full (tenured) professor. you are correct, they aren't doing that bad, but given their education, they could easily be doing a lot better if they worked in industry. supposedly there is an offset for "in demand" professorships, e.g., engineering, so they make a bit more, but from what i understand, at UCCS the engineering professors are getting right around what is listed as the colorado average (probably more up in boulder for cost of living).

 

these guys work at least 60 hours a week, btw.

 

i do believe private schools pay better, but i don't know what the difference would be. most of the high-end private schools are also in high cost of living areas (like cambridge, for example), so it would be difficult to strip out without more details.

 

taks

[taks]

Most of my teaching energy now goes into my staff.

what on earth do you do that results in your own staff? i thought you went into the military not too long ago?

 

taks

[Gfted1]

I put a lot of energy into my staff too. hurhur.

[Walsingham]

Staff puns! *groan*

 

 

I'm a part time soldier, taks. Territorial Army. Like that guy in The Office.

[Enoch]

i know from experience that college professors, tenured, with a PhD obviously, make significantly less than their working counterparts.

 

I defer to your experience but according to this chart they arent doing too bad. Of course Im not sure what youre referring to by "working counterparts".

taks' experience is probably with other engineers, where the private sector is almost certainly more lucrative than the ivory tower. In 'hard skills' fields like engineering, math, the sciences, statistics, business, economics, law, and medicine, most college-level teachers could be making larger salaries outside the academic world. But it's tough to talk about teachers as one group, because that pairs this group with instructors in the humanities, history, philosophy, literature, languages, etc., who don't have a particularly vibrant market for their skills outside of a collegiate setting.

 

 

Anyhow, we're getting pretty far afield from the original topic here. It's presidential transition time, people! Latest leaks have Tom Daschle as the pick for the Health & Human Services job (and a lead role in the administration's plans for reforming health insurance), and Eric Holder as the lead candidate for Attorney General.

[taks]

hehe, liberal arts teachers get degrees so they can teach other people to get liberal arts degrees, too.

 

btw, the stipend i get for teaching is equivalent to slave labor.

 

taks

[taks]

uh, the discussion about college level teaching was mostly off topic even for our otherwise off-topic discussion about teaching in general.

 

taks

[Hurlshort]

hehe, liberal arts teachers get degrees so they can teach other people to get liberal arts degrees, too.

 

 

taks

 

Hey, I resemble that remark!

[Meshugger]

While working a year in the higher academia at the engineering department, i learned that many professors and teachers were poster childs of what a future burnout would look like. 40h/week is disingenious, make it more like 60, atleast.

 

Anyhoo, back to topic: How's the rumors about Hillary Clinton becoming the Secretary of State coming along?

[Wrath of Dagon]

Pretty much a done deal I think. I don't know why no one ever appoints an actual diplomat as a Secretary of State, but whatever.

[taks]

Hey, I resemble that remark!

at the grade school level there aren't "degrees" being handed out. at the college level, there are too many.

 

taks

[Guard Dog]

With no offense intended to taks or Hurlshot my experience has been that hard sciences teachers (particularly college professors) lacked the drive and mental toughness to survive in a highly competitive, even cut throat job market. Too many that I have know walked around thinking they were "owed" something. The cold truth in my job is that I am only as good as my last project and only secure so long as my current project is relevant and funded. There is an old saying in our profession: "Those who can, do. Those who can not, teach." There has never been a time when I would trade constant challenges in my work or the money I make for the security of teaching. Thats just me though.

 

Hurlshot this applies much less to you since you are a professional teacher, trained to do just that. I suspect few who pursue the hard sciences do so with teaching in mind.

[SteveThaiBinh]

"Those who can, do. Those who can not, teach."

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=RxsOVK4syxU

[Guard Dog]

I'm glad Obama is so committed to change. Why with his election all these new faces are coming into power like a breath of fresh cool wind off the Potomac. So far we have

 

1)Rahm Emanuel who was a political adviser to Paul Tsongas and Bill Clinton, a four year stint on the Board of Directors of Freddy Mac (his only "real" job), and a short stint in Congress and as the DNC chairman. In short a career political hack and beltway "insider".

 

2)Tom Daschle who aside from a very short time in the US Air Force as spent his entire career as a political aide, congressman and senator. He spent so little time in his home state of South Dakota that no one there recognized him. Finally they got sick of his weak kneed, hand wringing and gentle weeping and voted him out of office in 2004. Rather than get a real job he moved to DC full time and became a lobbyist for a number of BIG pharmaceutical companies. Now he (who represented the interests of BIG Pharm) will be the next Secretary of the Health and Human Services Department and in charge of "reforming" health care.

 

3)Eric Holder has spent his entire career in the Justice Dept in DC, was the Deputy Attorney General under Clinton, and is best known for convincing Clinton to pardon Marc Rich. If you forgot who he was that fine gentleman made millions illegally trading with Iran during the embargo by buying oil dirt cheap and selling to the US at a HUGE markup. He was finally indicted for tax fraud and fled the country rather than stand trial. Before his pardon Rich donated "large" amounts of money to the Democrat National Committee and Bill Clinton's Presidential Library. I wonder how much of that money ended up in Holders pocket? He is a career Washington insider and political hack with no qualms about peddling influence for money.

 

4) Hillary Clinton (possibly). Good grief, where do I even start?

 

Wow, all this change coming to America. Meet the new boss... same as the old boss.

 

What is this hand basket we are in and where are we going?

[taks]

my PhD advisor was actually military when he got his PhD in the 60s, and has rather extensive experience in the real world. the guy i work for now (at the school), is a seasoned consultant (he actually works for my company as well, which is how i got referred to this job). he works mostly for another local company over the summers and on his sabbaticals these days. i wouldn't qualify either as lacking in drive. i'd be willing to bet that you know who my advisor is anyway, guard dog, given that you're a comm guy as well.

 

taks