BREAKING NEWS: FALLOUT 3 TO FEATURE TEXT

[Slowtrain]

considering Oblivion is the worst written crpg ever

You're wrong. Morrowind was even worse.

 

 

I didn't think Bethesda could do worse after Morrowind. That's where I was wrong. Horribly horribly wrong. Either way, I would hate to have to live on the difference.

 

 

I wouldn't call Daggerfall a well-written game either, however there were a few differences between it and the later ES games that means I don't judge it quite so harshly. FIrst of all it was such a huge game and randomly generated to boot so it was pretty hard to think that the devs could write great stuff for all of it. Secondly, the story of Daggerfall was by far the best of the ES games (which isn't saying all that much, I agree), and while it may not have been well-written textwise, it was certainly well thought out and presented (for a computer game).

[Morgoth]

Fallout 3 definitely looks very promising to me, even though I see it more as a FPS/RPG hybrid, less as a full fletched RPG, and even more less as a successor to F1/2, even though the "3" does say so. I'll lurk the forums and wait what people have to say after spending some dozens of hours into it. Or I go to the RPG Codex - If there's a lot of whining, chances are F3 is gonna be a good game.

[Pidesco]

"Exposition in Mass Effect, for example, is generally atrocious."

 

No.

 

Yes.

 

Shepard - "Tell me about whatever"

 

the other person - "wall of awkward text"

 

I have to disagree on that "wall of text" part. For most of the time, Mass Effect didn't hit you with wall of text, you could skip out of talky situations fast with right side neutral option. Even if you chose to ask just about everything, there wasn't that much text. More detailed info went into codex and then it would be your option if you chose to read it, or some cases, listen excellent narrative voiceover. I think other developers should do the same and give players more options how much info they want about the world, story or the characters.

 

The point isn't that you have an option not to read it, but rather that the information in those monologues should be conveyed to the player through flowing conversations, and through mise en sc

[Xard]

"Exposition in Mass Effect, for example, is generally atrocious."

 

No.

 

Yes.

 

Shepard - "Tell me about whatever"

 

the other person - "wall of awkward text"

 

I have to disagree on that "wall of text" part. For most of the time, Mass Effect didn't hit you with wall of text, you could skip out of talky situations fast with right side neutral option. Even if you chose to ask just about everything, there wasn't that much text. More detailed info went into codex and then it would be your option if you chose to read it, or some cases, listen excellent narrative voiceover. I think other developers should do the same and give players more options how much info they want about the world, story or the characters.

 

The point isn't that you have an option not to read it, but rather that the information in those monologues should be conveyed to the player through flowing conversations, and through mise en sc

Edited September 20, 2008 by Xard

[Volourn]

L0L Wall of text. The biggest criminal for bland of wall text is PST. *cough* bloodwar wall of text *cough*

[SteveThaiBinh]

Lovers of text can play the Hitchhikers's Guide to the Galaxy text adventure online, now with added pictures.

 

I've always thought 'Show, don't tell' overrated. I wish I could remember the names of those involved, but I watched an interview with a Hollywood director in which he told the story of how, after major rewrites to his script, the lead actress came over to him and protested. He explained that by cutting out most of the dialogue, in accordance with 'Show, don't tell', the audience could see and understand the main character's situation more clearly, to which the actress replied, "But there's nothing interesting about the main character's situation. What's interesting is what she has to say about it."

 

Words are good, and so is text.

[mr insomniac]

L0L Wall of text. The biggest criminal for bland of wall text is PST. *cough* bloodwar wall of text *cough*

Well... Torment tried to convey a lot of information about the Planescape setting to gamers; it wasn't well known, it wasn't classic fantasy, whatever. And those walls of text did actually help to understand what was going on, at least it worked for me. No doubt there could have been much less text and the message would have gotten across just as well... but if you felt like reading, the the writing was at least good, and if you didn't feel like reading you could skip it.

[Volourn]

"but if you felt like reading, the the writing was at least good, and if you didn't feel like reading you could skip it. "

 

PST's writing was good overall; but it wans't uniformly good. That's a myth. My previous example of the wall of text detailing the BW is a fine example of poor writing. Some of the charcters are poorly wriiten ("OMGZZZZZ! FIREEEEEEEEEE!"... Of course, there's examples of great writing too... most anything dealing with Dak'kon for example. I just don't believe the myth that PST's writing is above approach. It isn't. Not even close.

[Stephen Amber]

is above approach

 

That's "reproach" you're looking for...

[Killjoy]

I remain as unsurprised as ever by how many people didn't pay attention to Morrowind, and who consider it poorly written. Morrowind has one of the most brilliantly constructed stories behind it of any RPG, and 90% of the gaming community doesn't even know it because they rushed through the game and are only aware of the most superficial story elements. If you paid attention, if you took the time to read the rare texts that you would sometimes find, you would learn that the story behind everything that has happened is almost completely 180% of what is told to you. You (and public perception) are being completely manipulated, and the game doesn't point it out to you; you have to find it for yourself.

 

But, like I said, 90% of the gaming community that played Morrowind barreled through it, and they now say that "Morrowind was poorly written". Yeah, good job with that.

[Volourn]

L0L MW is horribly written. And, I didn't rush through to beat it. Writing (and verything else) was so horrible I simply quit. I think people who think MW's writing is good really don't know what good writing is. Finding books lying around that tells you background stuff is NOT good writing. ie. Show do not tell is the best way to get a story across.

[Killian Kalthorne]

I have to agree with Volourn on this. The books were simple exposition and added nothing significant tot he story. Its the writing in the story, as well as the voice acting if any, that matters. The story of Morrowind was terrible. The exposition was decent.

[Shryke]

i disagree

 

the books if you actually took the time to read them, were well written, and did elaborate on the background of the main storyline greatly

 

that being said, it was a poor way to implement such aspects to the storyline, and did detract from the gameplay

[Volourn]

"the books if you actually took the time to read them, were well written, and did elaborate on the background of the main storyline greatly

 

that being said, it was a poor way to implement such aspects to the storyline, and did detract from the gameplay"

 

So, you agree, the story was poorly written. It doesn't matter how well the books themselves are written - that's an absolutely poor way to tell your story hence poor storytelling hence poor writing.

[random n00b]

Heh. Obviously, regardless of plot depth and the way its details are conveyed, there's bound to be whining. If it's delivered by actors via voiced conversations, it's "OMG textwalls". If it's books or a codex left up to the players to read if they are interested, it's "OMG weak storytelling".

 

Note to devs: ignore the fans.

[Volourn]

"Note to devs: ignore the fans."

 

I agree with this statement.

[Shryke]

"the books if you actually took the time to read them, were well written, and did elaborate on the background of the main storyline greatly

 

that being said, it was a poor way to implement such aspects to the storyline, and did detract from the gameplay"

 

So, you agree, the story was poorly written. It doesn't matter how well the books themselves are written - that's an absolutely poor way to tell your story hence poor storytelling hence poor writing.

 

i'm not saying the story itself was poorly written, i'm saying that it was poorly implemented

 

having the basics given to you through dialogue and interaction, and then the rest in random books lying around that you may ignore completely is a poor way to get it across

 

once you put all the pieces together, the story isn't all that bad. it's certainly better than some crpgs i can think of

[Volourn]

Yeah, DF, for one. R00fles!

[Dark_Raven]

MW and Oblivions have nice books. The text in those is far superior than what passes as dialog in the games.

[Morgoth]

And who would be inane enough just to buy a game to read it's books?

[Slowtrain]

Note to devs: ignore the fans.

 

 

True. Its not like the fans are buying the games and allowing the developers to make a living or anything.

[random n00b]

Right, because fans always make relevant, sensible, informed, intelligent... etc. criticism. And most importantly, they always offer feasible ways of doing things better, in less time, and with less use of resources! Silly devs.

 

Lol, despite the general hatred that MW and Oblivion garner in these boards, they were both commercially very successful.

 

I can add a corollary if you want, though: ignore the fans, because despite all the whining, they'll buy the game just the same.

Edited September 22, 2008 by random n00b

[Slowtrain]

Developer should always listen to the fans. Its part of the job. They shouldn't always DO what the fans want, but the should always listen.

 

As to your corollary: There are those like me who do not just buy any game regardless. It would be helpful if there were more of us, true.

[Volourn]

"Developer should always listen to the fans. Its part of the job."

 

No, it isn't. Devs' job is to make games. periods. It's the media types' job to 'listen to the fan'.

 

The point is that fans are selfish, scummy, egotisitical, arrogant, and pieces of crap who never see the big picture, and are more likely to screw up your game than help it.

 

 

"Its not like the fans are buying the games and allowing the developers to make a living or anything."

 

Actually, it's the devs' skill that lets them make a living not the fans. The fans only buy the games they wnat to play which are made because of the devs' skill. Period. The success of a developer (or any company) is because of them not because of some selfish, scummy, egotisitical, arrogant piece of crap. Sorry; but it's true.

[Slowtrain]

"Developer should always listen to the fans. Its part of the job."

 

No, it isn't. Devs' job is to make games. periods. It's the media types' job to 'listen to the fan'.

 

 

Wrong. If you are in a business that provides goods or services to people for money, you damn well better listen to their feedback.

 

 

The point is that fans are selfish, scummy, egotisitical, arrogant, and pieces of crap who never see the big picture, and are more likely to screw up your game than help it.

 

 

Some fans are, some aren't. Dismiss them all at your own risk.

 

 

"Its not like the fans are buying the games and allowing the developers to make a living or anything."

Actually, it's the devs' skill that lets them make a living not the fans. The fans only buy the games they wnat to play which are made because of the devs' skill. Period. The success of a developer (or any company) is because of them not because of some selfish, scummy, egotisitical, arrogant piece of crap. Sorry; but it's true.

 

 

The devevlopers skill and knowledge only has value because there are people willing to pay money for it. No customers= no money.

 

 

Period.