More cops on the streets, does that ever work

[Gorgon]

Apparently I'm in the middle of a gang war, if I'm to take the papers seriously. The local Hells Angels are shooting it out with various 'immigrant mafia' types for control of the illegal drugs market. There have been a few shootings in broad daylight, and now of course it's the cause de jour for any self respecting politician is to be tougher than everyone else on these gang elements.

 

Along with the usual cries to throw them out of the country, that would be the immigrants, who always pay out good political capital when you kick them in the shin, are calls for more 'visible police' on the street. Now here is my question, why does anyone think that it's at all feasible to have the police act as bodyguards for the entire city by driving around in the streets, as opposed to working cases.

 

Policing is 99% after the fact, the protection they provide is one of deterrence, unless they are lucky enough to have advance notice, as in a large demonstration or footie match. Does anyone really buy this stuff, are people really that stupid.

Edited September 19, 2008 by Gorgon

[qt3.14159]

I've heard that one of the ways that Guliani cleaned up New York (and it's irrefutable that he *did* clean it up) was to have the police drive more slowly through the city. When the cruisers were flying through the city on their way to whatever emergency was going on people felt like there wasn't anyone there watching them, but slow the cruisers down, give the police more presence and people feel more accountable... or paranoid... whatever...

 

Now I'm not sure if any of that is verifiable, but it does seem logical, at least.

[Gorgon]

Yes, but wasn't his problem prostitution and drug selling on the street corners, as opposed to gangland shootings threatening civilians.

[Gfted1]

Wait, there are Hells Angels in Denmark!? Whoda thunk it. Are they a biker gang there too?

 

I think you answered your own question Gorgon with the example of increased presence at football matches. If just being there influences x% of people to not start trouble then it could be reasonably extrapolated to their increased presence "around town" would have the same result.

[Hurlshort]

Gorgon must be in California then, because I've been hearing about it too.

 

I think they are protesting the new Sons of Anarchy show by shooting people.

[Gorgon]

Yes there are HA here, in fact the 'great Nordic biker war' between Banditos and HA, was one of the most bloody turf wars they have fought yet. Including things like firing bazookas into enemy strongholds.

 

We stockpile these things in case the Russians invade, apparently padlocks were thought to be sufficient to keep people from stealing them.

Edited September 19, 2008 by Gorgon

[Laozi]

I've heard that one of the ways that Guliani cleaned up New York (and it's irrefutable that he *did* clean it up) was to have the police drive more slowly through the city. When the cruisers were flying through the city on their way to whatever emergency was going on people felt like there wasn't anyone there watching them, but slow the cruisers down, give the police more presence and people feel more accountable... or paranoid... whatever...

 

Now I'm not sure if any of that is verifiable, but it does seem logical, at least.

 

 

I also remember reading that during that time deaths of innocent, unarmed citizens by the police went up over 300%, so there is a trade off. Lots more collateral damage

Edited September 19, 2008 by Laozi

[Gfted1]

We stockpile these things in case the Russians invade, apparently padlocks were thought to be sufficient to keep people from stealing them.

 

 

EDIT: Didnt Guliani "clean up New York" by shipping all the homeless out?

Edited September 19, 2008 by Gfted1

[Hell Kitty]

Hells Angels are everywhere. Bandidos too.

[qt3.14159]

I also remember reading that during that time deaths of innocent, unarmed citizens by the police went up over 300%, so there is a trade off. Lots more collateral damage

 

Isn't that statistic a little misleading? How many shootings of innocent, unarmed citizens by a police officer actually occur in a year, even in a place like NYC? Three or four? and now it's 9 or 12? How many deaths of innocent, unarmed citizens were prevented in that year by the cops being visible in the neighborhoods?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing for or against, the original question was "does that ever work" and I was pointing out that yes, sometimes it does.

 

Also, I have no idea about how NYC was really cleaned up. All I know is that when I was there in 90 it was the most disgusting place I have ever been in my entire life. It was a nasty, dirty city and I couldn't *wait* to go home... (I'm sure it doesn't help that I hate crowds). But when I was there in 2004 it wsa much, much nicer. It just seemed like a neat city.

 

So... that's about all I have to say about that...

[Moatilliatta]

Do you live in N

[Gorgon]

Vester Bronx. lols.

[Gorgon]

I dunno, they are small tight knit groups. 'Mafia' is probably what they want to be rather than what they are in reality.

[Hurlshort]

I was gonna jump on the 300% statistic, but qt pie already did. Oh man...I just figured out what your name means. I'm slooooow.

 

Moatilliatta brings up a good point, it's not really the police presence that's an issue, it's more about how they assert that presence. If they are overly aggressive and patrolling like a military force, then that's a serious problem. If they are well trained and acting in a strict peace keeping role, then you should feel better abut your safety.

 

Unless you are a mouthy ****. Then expect a beat down and a bit of electricity.

[Gorth]

The original fallout between HA and Bandidos was about market shares of the drug market. What started with a few killings eventually escalated, using heavy military equipment (hand grenades, car bombs, rocket launchers, assault weapons etc.) and they started dying faster than they could recruit new members. Never had it been that easy to join a "biker gang"

 

The problem was solved then by the police and politicians in cooperation, simply cracking down hard on them, especially where it really hurt, on their wallets. No ridiculous excuse was spared to impound assets, condiscate money, putting them behind bars for having a malfunctioning stop light on a bike etc.

 

Eventually they got tired of the police and took it to Sweden, causing a diplomatic incident between Denmark and Sweden (Sweden accused Denmark of just exporting their problems )

 

The new conflict is a similar one, except it's between an "ethnic" gang and the old biker gangers fighting over the drug market and organised crime again. I wouldn't be surprised if the same solution would work again, once the politicians finally get their act together.

[qt3.14159]

I was gonna jump on the 300% statistic, but qt pie already did. Oh man...I just figured out what your name means. I'm slooooow.

 

Moatilliatta brings up a good point, it's not really the police presence that's an issue, it's more about how they assert that presence. If they are overly aggressive and patrolling like a military force, then that's a serious problem. If they are well trained and acting in a strict peace keeping role, then you should feel better abut your safety.

 

Unless you are a mouthy ****. Then expect a beat down and a bit of electricity.

 

 

lol, well at least you got it eventually! :D

 

bad math puns for the win!

[Hildegard]

Yeah it will work, just look at at surge in Iraq, lol

[Meshugger]

The original fallout between HA and Bandidos was about market shares of the drug market. What started with a few killings eventually escalated, using heavy military equipment (hand grenades, car bombs, rocket launchers, assault weapons etc.) and they started dying faster than they could recruit new members. Never had it been that easy to join a "biker gang"

 

The problem was solved then by the police and politicians in cooperation, simply cracking down hard on them, especially where it really hurt, on their wallets. No ridiculous excuse was spared to impound assets, condiscate money, putting them behind bars for having a malfunctioning stop light on a bike etc.

 

Eventually they got tired of the police and took it to Sweden, causing a diplomatic incident between Denmark and Sweden (Sweden accused Denmark of just exporting their problems )

 

The new conflict is a similar one, except it's between an "ethnic" gang and the old biker gangers fighting over the drug market and organised crime again. I wouldn't be surprised if the same solution would work again, once the politicians finally get their act together.

 

Yeah, i clearly remember that period of time. I think the highlight was when they actually managed to blow up a local Bandidos HQ with a rocket propelled granade launcher. Now that must've been a sight in downtown Gothenburg(or where ever it was). It was more subtle in Finland at the time though, with several Hells Angels members suddenly 'disappearing'. I bet that there was a device called 'puukko' involved

[Xard]

wait, crooks with bazookas in Denmark?

 

You learn something new every day

[Moatilliatta]

The new conflict is a similar one, except it's between an "ethnic" gang and the old biker gangers fighting over the drug market and organised crime again. I wouldn't be surprised if the same solution would work again, once the politicians finally get their act together.

It's similar except the Biker gang's enemies has changed and unless the police figures out how to fight them properly, they won't be able to.

 

Personally I think it's time to discuss drug politics and judging from Politiken (Danish newspaper) Venstres Ungdom (youth group of the main government party) seem to think so too.

It seems to me that attacking them in the wallet would be easiest.

[Rosbjerg]

wait, crooks with bazookas in Denmark?

 

You learn something new every day

 

Hells Angels had gotten their hands on some Army Bazookas and wanted to blow up a jail. Can't remember if they wanted to free their own guys or blow up the other baddies (it was in the mid 90's)... anywho, they were stupid enough to fire the thing 20 m away from the walls, since the rocket had an arming range of 30 m, it was kinda like shooting a giant metal arrow into a brick wall.. So sure, they have bazookas - but they are too stupid to use them anyway.

 

I live in N

[Walsingham]

Er... sure it will help, but we're talking about a complex system. More cops could mean less money for education, and an increase six years down the line. Moreover, cops don't in fact have magic erase-o guns that make criminals disappear. Criminals simply get into the penal system. Which in many cases just makes them more effective criminals.

 

But lots of cops will make people feel safe for a bit.

[Aram]

They wouldn't need all those extra cops if they just had lots more gun control.

[Gorgon]

No we should just give everyone grenades, it would be like the community policing equivalent of M.A.D

[Aram]

Or just a nuclear bomb under the city, and everyone gets a button.