The quality of combat in Bloodlines and other games

[Wrath of Dagon]

No one has as much dialog if that's what you mean, but as far as quality I don't see what's so great about Atris. I never entirely got the point of her character while playing, may be if it was clear that she betrayed the Jedi gathering I'd appreciate her more. So I'd say most of your party members are better than her. As far as others, perhaps the Sith Academy master and his assistant. And Bastila isn't silly or black and white at all, she's trying to be a good Jedi, but her hubris and passions are corrupting her, that's a very human thing to happen. As opposed to all the mumbo-jumbo about destroying the force that's a large part of K2.

[newc0253]

wow, that combat discussion is really going well, huh?

[Volourn]

"Volo, explain how JE's mostly formulaic, cliched and uninspired writing can match Kotor 2 or hell, even Kotor 1?"

 

No need to do so again when you already came to such a 'final' 'factual' conclusion.

 

KOTOR1+2 wiritng is oevrrated. The fact people in this thgread are claiming that characters such as Hanharr, Bao-Dur, Atton, Carth, etc. are excellently written characters is all I need to know to know that JE writing and characters > KOTOR series characters.

 

P.S. Jade Empire is NOT China. It was never intended to be China. No more than FR is intended to be Europe of the Dark Ages. A HUGE mistake made by a lot of non believers who use illogical fallices that don't make sense to try to justify disliking the settings.

[Rostere]

So I herd you are bitching about combat in Troika games.

I love the combat in Arcanum, and even more the TB/ RT hybrid in Fallout: Tactics (just so you know!).

 

*Ducks and covers for eventual hailstorm of disagreement*

[SteveThaiBinh]

I love the combat in Arcanum

Me too. I wish Baldur's Gate had a turn-based option. I know, however, that others have argued here that by trying to implement both realtime and turn-based, neither were particularly good. I'm not a connaisseur of combat, so I don't know these things.

[Killian Kalthorne]

As long as the game is fun, its all good.

[CoM_Solaufein]

I don't know if it is engine or art direction AND engine but BG2 visuals > Jade Empire

It depends on your own tastes, of course, but I think for a lot of people BG2 visuals beat most later games. They represent the apex of that particular generation of graphics, with gorgeous 2D locations still leaving a lot for the imagination to do. However, if Bioware had decided to stick with that generation and not move on to 3D, they would have gone bust by now. Got to move with the times, eh?

The BG and IWD games had beautiful visuals. Better looking than most games since then.

[Rostere]

I love the combat in Arcanum

Me too. I wish Baldur's Gate had a turn-based option. I know, however, that others have argued here that by trying to implement both realtime and turn-based, neither were particularly good. I'm not a connaisseur of combat, so I don't know these things.

 

Of course Arcanum could be improved in many ways, but my only solid piece of negative criticism is actually that all the charcters look funny when they are running.

[Xard]

I love the combat in Arcanum

 

Dude, you're so dead

 

KOTOR1+2 wiritng is oevrrated. The fact people in this thgread are claiming that characters such as Hanharr, Bao-Dur, Atton, Carth, etc. are excellently written characters is all I need to know to know that JE writing and characters > KOTOR series characters.

 

 

Only slim difference between "fact" and opinion is argument's worth. I think I made my case quite clear while you go on with your typical one sentence answers without any substance, even when directly asked

 

No one has as much dialog if that's what you mean, but as far as quality I don't see what's so great about Atris. I never entirely got the point of her character while playing, may be if it was clear that she betrayed the Jedi gathering I'd appreciate her more.

 

She didn't betray jedi gathering. Atris is a lot more complex than typical yet-another-falling-jedi.

 

As far as others, perhaps the Sith Academy master and his assistant

 

Yes, very deep or original characters indeed.

 

And Bastila isn't silly or black and white at all, she's trying to be a good Jedi, but her hubris and passions are corrupting her, that's a very human thing to happen.

 

I like Bastila's character, but she's typical Bio character and basically Aribeth 2.0 (Silk Fox in JE is Aribeth 3.0 or Bastila 2.0), I liked her backstory and how she had to deal with her mother etc. Overall good character with nice character development, but essentially she's nothing more than typical fallen jedi. Very simple version of Atris.

 

Elekra complexial? What's that? I liked the Handmaiden, but Bastila was a more interesting character and had better dialog. Visas was just plain boring.

 

Ever heard of Freud?

 

Handmaiden is very deep and complex character and her relationship with male Exile is that of subtetly. There's the hidden meaning of sparring in context of echani culture (which doesn't become apparent untill later in game), her relationship to her mother and how it reflects on what kind of person she became, the connection she sees and awes between Exile and her father (which with its platonical and purely non-romantical interest and longing mixed with clear romantical undertones gave me reason to lol at propably unintentional Freudism), her interest in forbidden jedi teachings conflicting with her loyalty to Atris (which alone is comparable to Bastila's flickering between light and dark), the very strained relationship with her "sisters" and how it has shaped her... There's a lot going on in her character, most of it under the surface and it requires keen attentiveness to minute details to truly "unlock" her character.

 

This is very much same with most of K2's cast and reason why back in 05-06 there was CONSTANTLY huge threads that were basically (psychopathological in some cases) analyses of K2's key characters. Especially Jediphile shined in this.

 

As for dialogue I don't see how one claim Bastila's dialogue was better written. It was mostly the mundane, bland stuff Star Wars jedis have spouted out since whole EU mumbo jumbo began in dawn of time. There's some nice bits and parts, but largerly it is shallow, "easy to get" and at times unbeliavable dialogue due to story schemes. Handmaiden/Brianna's dialogue on the other hand is subtle, marvelously written and deeply entwined with her character beginning from choice of words and how they're ultimately tied with her echani philosophy. Her observations on fight and its very nature, nature of words compared to fight, her mixed loyalties etc. all come off with grace rarely seen. This is essentially the beauty and skill of MCA's writing and strong reminder of Planescape Torment in where character's nature defined the way they talked and acted to truly masterful extremes. You can always FEEL the core of character within K2's (and especially) and PS:T's cast because they're expressed on so many levels, by both actions and basic dialogue.

 

 

Only substantial part of Bastila's backstory is conflict with her mother which was by all means fine addition. But yet again so very mundane.

 

But I doubt you caught subtetly of this fundamental aspect in Kotor 2 when you played it.

 

That's really heavy Mother-Daughter ****. (please notice both have locks btw. It affects even visual details)

 

What really sets Kotor 2 and Kotor 1 apart is above all the character development and how it is handled. There's no subtetly or has ever been in Bioware's writing. Characters are very achetypical, identifiable and categorizable. When you first meet Bioware character you know him/her through and through. There's no subtetly or grace in character development, they're handed in bits like some kind of reward for players and they're so very obvious. Canderous does reflect his "core nature" in the way he talks (and he is one of better written characters in k1), but at the same time he simply reflects the dozens of tough guy architypes summoned by Hollywood in the heyday. When Kotor 2 character speaks those words tend to be such they couldn't have come from any other character's mouth, but Bioware characters tend to be very remixes of archetypes. You can easily imagine Canderous's dialogue (stripping away Mandalorian in-universe references of course) coming from mouth of some action flick character. (I feel bad on knockin' down Canderous here because he IS well written character)

 

Not so much with Handmaiden, Visas, Kreia or G0-T0 (he does resemble HAL somewhat, but only by far). Handmaiden's speak is defined by the sentence structures and words (often derivated in some way from "fighting" words and then given new context) of her dialogue and is really hard to imagine in anyone elses mouth, unlike the case with K1 character. Mission Vao is quite archetypical annoying brat who could live in any youngsters series on TV.

 

 

K1 had one fantastically written character and that was Jolee, but 1 character against army of others isn't doing much. HK-47 is great too but after K2 I haven't enjoyed him so much in k1 again (nearly all top HK-47 quotes come from K2 e.g Pacifist installment and its hilarious consequences or his definition of love) and well, Canderous is good as I already said. K1 characters overall are very decent. JE... not so much

 

Biggest differences between Bio games and Kotor 2, MotB and especially PS:T doesn't stem only from incredibly well written dialogue, it stems above all from how their characterization and development is handled. In Kotor 2 it's often so subtle one misses it, only to find himself later thinking "HOW I COULDN'T SEE THAT".

 

But I'm wasting my breath here. Just read this greatest LP on the internets and you get the idea what I'm talking about and why K2 is so much above K1 in writing

 

 

It is also worth noting how Kotor 2's nemesises are basically aspects of Exile himself (in metaphysical, not literal sense) he must confront in order to grow through his/her tribulations instead of some boring, cliched cackling maniac. (heck, at least MCA IMPLIED that Nihilus is basically lost half of Exile, but it is unclear if this cool and very fitting concept was ever canonized) It is similar to Empire Strikes Back in its Hero's Journey structure and thematic elements.

Edited September 3, 2008 by Xard

[kirottu]

HANDMAIDEN'S BIKINI WAS HOTTER THAN BASTILA'S!!!

 

GAME OVER!

[Xard]

yeah, game over

 

'sides, it was even hotter on Mira

 

...too bad I couldn't put it on Kreia

[taks]

Me too. I wish Baldur's Gate had a turn-based option. I know, however, that others have argued here that by trying to implement both realtime and turn-based, neither were particularly good.

well, they do, kind of, but yes, it wasn't a very good implementation. implement the "pause after every round" option and you get close, but the actual execution of the round is not really "turn-based" in the same sense as pnp. but, the whole "it's not the same as pnp" argument (in favor of TB combat) is a bit tired since, well, computer games are NOT pnp. you should expect differences.

 

also, had ToEE actually been done better (i mean overall game), we might have seen a paradigm shift in the industry towards that style of combat. in spite of its flaws, it was sort of cool to get the pnp experience (sort of) in a computer game.

 

taks

[Wrath of Dagon]

She didn't betray jedi gathering. Atris is a lot more complex than typical yet-another-falling-jedi.

 

Yes she did:

There

[Stephen Amber]

implement the "pause after every round" option and you get close, but the actual execution of the round is not really "turn-based" in the same sense as pnp

 

You get close? Not really, since all are taking their turns simultaneously when the game isn't paused, turns aren't discrete turns per combatant as in pnp. It's not even close to close...

[Xard]

But I doubt you caught subtetly of this fundamental aspect in Kotor 2 when you played it.

I doubt you did either.

 

No, I didn't

 

 

Atris didn't think she was betraying them. It was not her intention. You can't say she betrayed the jedi. Rather she just made stupid mistake that ended up being very costly

[Wrath of Dagon]

She leaked the knowledge, and she knew what could happen, so I'd say she betrayed them, just a matter of semantics though.

 

Edit: Also, remember that Kreia thought Atris would replace her as the betrayer, so her actions have to be seen in that light.

Edited September 3, 2008 by Wrath of Dagon

[Xard]

She leaked the knowledge, and she knew what could happen, so I'd say she betrayed them, just a matter of semantics though.

 

The very point is she could not knew what would happen, no one could

 

 

Again, it was just act of madness and carelesness by one hypocrite

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Kotor 2 is more interesting simply because it causes lots of debates like these. :D

[Wrath of Dagon]

It's more interesting to analyze, I'll give you that.

[Dark_Raven]

I love the combat in Arcanum

Me too. I wish Baldur's Gate had a turn-based option. I know, however, that others have argued here that by trying to implement both realtime and turn-based, neither were particularly good. I'm not a connaisseur of combat, so I don't know these things.

 

Of course Arcanum could be improved in many ways, but my only solid piece of negative criticism is actually that all the charcters look funny when they are running.

They looked funny to begin with. The characters looked just horrible but the game itself was still good though.

[Humodour]

Bloodlines had one of the most fun combat systems I've seen in a game for a long time.

 

Also fun were: Icewind Dale 1, Deus Ex 1, Half-Life 1, Planescape: Torment, Jagged Alliance 2.

[Kelverin]

Also, in ToEE, those damn cheating bugbears were annoying as all hell. I really hate those bugbears.

 

What exactly am I looking for here as far as Bugbears cheating?

 

By the way volo, it took the BB about 6 rounds before they went after my mage, even then it was only a couple, they went after my fighters first.

[Spider]

Afaik they keep doing trip attacks with weapons that don't allow you to do trips.

[Gorth]

Bloodlines had one of the most fun combat systems I've seen in a game for a long time.

 

Also fun were: Icewind Dale 1, Deus Ex 1, Half-Life 1, Planescape: Torment, Jagged Alliance 2.

Lets just get to the best bits right away. Ok, so I've never played Half-Life, but JA2 beats the rest in sheer fun, combatwise. It even makes the x-coms pale by comparison

 

I think there are two types of fun combat, the one where you need to commit all your grey cells to win and the one where you need all your adrenaline glands to win. Stalker would fall in the latter category for me. I found combat quite challenging (almost frustratingly difficult at times).

 

Bloodlines combat was nice. Not bad, but not really either/or either, or?... Combat was functional. It was there, served a purpose, but it wasn't the reason you played/enjoyed the game.

 

I have to play ToEE too some day. It's been gathering dust ever since I picked it up from a bargain bin.

[Hell Kitty]

^ I agree with that. Combat in Bloodlines was functional, just like Deus Ex. Combat in JA2 was awesomecalafragdalisticexpealadoshis.

 

Silent Storm combat was even better, because there ain't nothing like taking out the side of a building with a single grenade.

Edited September 10, 2008 by Hell Kitty