TSL Restoration Project: The Phantom Deadline, READ FIRST POST BEFORE POSTING.

[Darth_Windu]

Whoa. Calm down, please. I'm still patient, but the mod has indeed been a long time coming. And I wouldn't exactly call it inspiring that it's been over a year since the last progress report either.

I wasn't having a go at you, I just get frustrated with hearing the same complains over and over again. I know it's annoying that the TSLRP is taking so long, but it simply cannot be helped. What Dash is doing is important, and the mod WILL be completed. All complaining does though is irritates people (by people, read 'me' :D) but yeah, one of the hazards of reading forums when you should really be in bed...

[Omelette]

If I could, I'd bake you all cookies with hearts on them.

[Shryke]

do it!

 

i want cookies

[Foamhead]

You know even though I care very little if this Mod ever comes out, a lot of people do and I am starting to feel everyone's anger and impatience. If "Dash" or whatever his name is does not release this mod within twelve weeks I am going to pay professionals to restore that content myself, and I absolutely assure everyone the people I hire WILL have it out by summer. If Team Gizka can't be bothered to hurry the hell up then either get more people on board or get someone who has the time to devote. Enough is enough.

[Albion72]

I would be grateful that someone has even decided to take up the project...

They could have said, "Screw it" in the beginning, never started, and we would never have the promise of restored content, regardless of whether or not it is taking awhile.

[Darth_Windu]

You know even though I care very little if this Mod ever comes out, a lot of people do and I am starting to feel everyone's anger and impatience. If "Dash" or whatever his name is does not release this mod within twelve weeks I am going to pay professionals to restore that content myself, and I absolutely assure everyone the people I hire WILL have it out by summer.

I'll hold you to that. Why? Because not only would it be funny to see you throw your money away but you might also learn some humility in the process.

[Foamhead]

You know even though I care very little if this Mod ever comes out, a lot of people do and I am starting to feel everyone's anger and impatience. If "Dash" or whatever his name is does not release this mod within twelve weeks I am going to pay professionals to restore that content myself, and I absolutely assure everyone the people I hire WILL have it out by summer.

I'll hold you to that. Why? Because not only would it be funny to see you throw your money away but you might also learn some humility in the process.

 

Making people happy is never throwing money away, and I would first have to be arrogant in order to require a humility lesson.

 

In any event call my bluff by all means. I would derive an obscene amount of pleasure in pulling the rug out from under this slovenly, glory seeking group of modders by releasing their own mod before they can. It's not like it would take much work or money since most of the restored content can be found via torrent sites anyway.

Edited November 30, 2008 by Foamhead

[Darth_Windu]

It's not like it would take much work or money since most of the restored content can be found via torrent sites anyway.

lol, so you're going to show them up by using their own work? hahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

Oh wait you're serious? Let me laugh harder HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[refuse]

You know even though I care very little if this Mod ever comes out, a lot of people do and I am starting to feel everyone's anger and impatience. If "Dash" or whatever his name is does not release this mod within twelve weeks I am going to pay professionals to restore that content myself, and I absolutely assure everyone the people I hire WILL have it out by summer.

I'll hold you to that. Why? Because not only would it be funny to see you throw your money away but you might also learn some humility in the process.

 

Making people happy is never throwing money away, and I would first have to be arrogant in order to require a humility lesson.

 

In any event call my bluff by all means. I would derive an obscene amount of pleasure in pulling the rug out from under this slovenly, glory seeking group of modders by releasing their own mod before they can. It's not like it would take much work or money since most of the restored content can be found via torrent sites anyway.

 

If you are serious about this, why don't you talk to TG about funding them to do the work and agree on a deadline? That way they can afford to work on it full-time, rather than on their weekends, holidays or other precious free time. Furthermore, why wait 12 weeks to begin? Are you that optimistic that you can assemble a team of professionals to complete it in something like six months?

 

By all means go for it, although I doubt you will find actually people willing to work on a mod for an ancient (by gaming standards) bug-ridden RPG. By the way, would you be selling this mod or would you be giving it out for free, like TG plans to? You realise that Lucasarts will have legality issues with that, as well all the authors of existing material (that is available for free) that you plan on utilising.

[Meshugger]

Up to 31 issues to be resolved now.

 

Positive outlook: I speculate that the public releasedate will be around fall '10.

Negative outlook: Seeing the buildmaster being AWOL for almost 3 months, my safest be that he has either moved to a whole other continent and gotten a work position that requires 18h/day of work, or have been assigned to an asylum. The project is indefinately put on hold until he returns.

[Miltiades]

Seeing the buildmaster being AWOL for almost 3 months, my safest be that he has either moved to a whole other continent and gotten a work position that requires 18h/day of work, or have been assigned to an asylum. The project is indefinately put on hold until he returns.

Neither is true, I think. He told us why he wouldn't be active for some time, and I won't divulge what he said, obviously. The project isn't actually on hold, since Tupac has fixed a few bugs in the last couple of days, but it is moving very slowly, this is true. But the announcement that 1.0b11 or 1.0b12 are the release candidates shows that the team decided the end's in sight. Where that end lies is, of course, not known, but it does mean that the team is ready to wrap it up.

[Foamhead]

You know even though I care very little if this Mod ever comes out, a lot of people do and I am starting to feel everyone's anger and impatience. If "Dash" or whatever his name is does not release this mod within twelve weeks I am going to pay professionals to restore that content myself, and I absolutely assure everyone the people I hire WILL have it out by summer.

I'll hold you to that. Why? Because not only would it be funny to see you throw your money away but you might also learn some humility in the process.

 

Making people happy is never throwing money away, and I would first have to be arrogant in order to require a humility lesson.

 

In any event call my bluff by all means. I would derive an obscene amount of pleasure in pulling the rug out from under this slovenly, glory seeking group of modders by releasing their own mod before they can. It's not like it would take much work or money since most of the restored content can be found via torrent sites anyway.

 

If you are serious about this, why don't you talk to TG about funding them to do the work and agree on a deadline? That way they can afford to work on it full-time, rather than on their weekends, holidays or other precious free time. Furthermore, why wait 12 weeks to begin? Are you that optimistic that you can assemble a team of professionals to complete it in something like six months?

 

By all means go for it, although I doubt you will find actually people willing to work on a mod for an ancient (by gaming standards) bug-ridden RPG. By the way, would you be selling this mod or would you be giving it out for free, like TG plans to? You realize that Lucasarts will have legality issues with that, as well all the authors of existing material (that is available for free) that you plan on utilizing.

 

No I would not charge for such a thing, it would be free as it should be. Since the modded material does not belong to Team Gizka as the copyright belongs to Lucasarts, if they have a problem with it my answer is "Wah, you had your chance". The reason I said twelve weeks is I would much rather the people who started the work to be the ones to finish it. Despite how much I dislike them it is still their work. I think three months is plenty of time to finish things up and get a slap on the back.

 

I might consider lending them one of my programmers if it will greatly speed things up, but I don't think they want it sped up as there would be no more attention when it is done. If I had to start it from scratch I doubt it could be done in six months but I also have never looked at this game or what would go into modding it, nor am I a programmer by any stretch. I would almost certainly download what is out there and have it professionally debugged and finish whatever is left to be added if anything. Yes it would be using the work Team Gizka have already done but I am not trying to jerk Obsidian's coat tales to get myself recognition either, my only interest is getting the people who have patiently waited FOUR YEARS what they have been more then patient for.

[Theseus]

Windu, what would it take for you guys to decide to find a new buildmaster, and another person to fix bugs? I'm sure that guys has done a great job in the past, and he would right now if he could, but sometimes as with cars if theres to many problems its just better go to ahead and get a new car and save on future repairs and problems. Nothing against Dashus, what he has done is great, and everyone has appreciated what he has done.

[Sharen the Exile]

Relax guys. Dash will be back sooner or later. Progress is being made, new ugly bugs are being reported (= less bugs you encounter) and Tupac Amaru has been fixing alot recently. If Dash knew he couldn't return to the project, he would have already appoint a new buildmaster. But that's not the case.

 

We've been waiting for so long that a couple of additional weeks won't make a difference The mod will be done and in the end, everyone will be happy

Edited November 30, 2008 by Sharen the Exile

[Darth_Windu]

Agreed Sharen, relax folks. As Milty said, Tupac has been active fixing a few bugs, and the only reason the bug count is rising is because Milty and I are going through the game and reporting new bugs we hadn't come across.

 

That's a GOOD thing believe it or not, it means that hopefully when Dash gets back, we'll have all issues reported so the only thing that needs to happen is the fixes.

[refuse]

We've been waiting for so long that a couple of additional weeks won't make a difference

If only it were just a couple weeks more!

 

No I would not charge for such a thing, it would be free as it should be. Since the modded material does not belong to Team Gizka as the copyright belongs to Lucasarts, if they have a problem with it my answer is "Wah, you had your chance". The reason I said twelve weeks is I would much rather the people who started the work to be the ones to finish it. Despite how much I dislike them it is still their work. I think three months is plenty of time to finish things up and get a slap on the back.

 

I might consider lending them one of my programmers if it will greatly speed things up, but I don't think they want it sped up as there would be no more attention when it is done. If I had to start it from scratch I doubt it could be done in six months but I also have never looked at this game or what would go into modding it, nor am I a programmer by any stretch. I would almost certainly download what is out there and have it professionally debugged and finish whatever is left to be added if anything. Yes it would be using the work Team Gizka have already done but I am not trying to jerk Obsidian's coat tales to get myself recognition either, my only interest is getting the people who have patiently waited FOUR YEARS what they have been more then patient for.

 

I can understand your enthusiasm and frustration, but since you also yourself admit you are not a modder, you probably don't realise how difficult assembling a team of people for such a project is in the first place. Most people who produce mods for the game (and hence have the technical know-how you require) do so in their spare time. No offense to the quality of their work and efforts (much appreciated), but since they are a labour or love, rather a strictly-speaking professional venture (as well as a notoriously bug-ridden game to boot), you are very unlikely to find people willing to undertake such a professionally-orientated project as you suggest. There have been other teams of modders in the past that have attempted to do what you propose and failed. The other option is to find programmers from outside the KotOR modding community which presents a whole different set of issues to be dealt with, such as getting them to play the game and figure everything out from scratch, before going on to examining everything that already exists and figuring out how they are going to complete their allocated task. It seems to me quite unrealistic that you would find amateur modders or professional programmers willing to do this. There is a good reason that nobody else has done anything as extensive as TG is. In any case, don't let my cynicism dissuade you from any such efforts.

[Foamhead]

We've been waiting for so long that a couple of additional weeks won't make a difference

If only it were just a couple weeks more!

 

No I would not charge for such a thing, it would be free as it should be. Since the modded material does not belong to Team Gizka as the copyright belongs to Lucasarts, if they have a problem with it my answer is "Wah, you had your chance". The reason I said twelve weeks is I would much rather the people who started the work to be the ones to finish it. Despite how much I dislike them it is still their work. I think three months is plenty of time to finish things up and get a slap on the back.

 

I might consider lending them one of my programmers if it will greatly speed things up, but I don't think they want it sped up as there would be no more attention when it is done. If I had to start it from scratch I doubt it could be done in six months but I also have never looked at this game or what would go into modding it, nor am I a programmer by any stretch. I would almost certainly download what is out there and have it professionally debugged and finish whatever is left to be added if anything. Yes it would be using the work Team Gizka have already done but I am not trying to jerk Obsidian's coat tales to get myself recognition either, my only interest is getting the people who have patiently waited FOUR YEARS what they have been more then patient for.

 

I can understand your enthusiasm and frustration, but since you also yourself admit you are not a modder, you probably don't realise how difficult assembling a team of people for such a project is in the first place. Most people who produce mods for the game (and hence have the technical know-how you require) do so in their spare time. No offense to the quality of their work and efforts (much appreciated), but since they are a labour or love, rather a strictly-speaking professional venture (as well as a notoriously bug-ridden game to boot), you are very unlikely to find people willing to undertake such a professionally-orientated project as you suggest. There have been other teams of modders in the past that have attempted to do what you propose and failed. The other option is to find programmers from outside the KotOR modding community which presents a whole different set of issues to be dealt with, such as getting them to play the game and figure everything out from scratch, before going on to examining everything that already exists and figuring out how they are going to complete their allocated task. It seems to me quite unrealistic that you would find amateur modders or professional programmers willing to do this. There is a good reason that nobody else has done anything as extensive as TG is. In any case, don't let my cynicism dissuade you from any such efforts.

 

 

I said I wasn't a programmer, not that I knew nothing about game design. I design my own games for a living, (or at least try to) and I understand the difficulty of modding when you do not have access to the original tools or source code. It isn't my frustration or enthusiasm that is the problem since I am very indifferent to this project personally. It is my sympathy for all the people who have been far too patient for far too long and my desire to give them what they deserve after waiting so long. Enough is enough and if this Team Gizka really were as altruistic as they claim they would not have any trouble bringing in someone else to speed the process. You will notice none of the people working on it tried to take me up on my offer of a full time programmer to help debug and finish the project. The reason is he/they don't want the attention to end and the arrogance of "no one but me can touch this". I simply feel for this community and how long they have waited for this and I want this nonsense to end.

Edited December 1, 2008 by Foamhead

[Darth_Windu]

You will notice none of the people working on it [TSLRP] tried to take me up on my offer of a full time programmer to help debug and finish the project. The reason is he/they don't want the attention to end and the arrogance of "no one but me can touch this". I simply feel for this community and how long they have waited for this and I want this nonsense to end.

Yeah...that's probably because none of them post here!

 

I mean seriously, great information sources you must have. Anyway Dash is the project leader, it is HIS decision on whether to bring anyone else in. He's busy, so everyone can wait.

 

As for 'feeling for the community', what an absolute load. Go and pay your programmers of create a version of TSLRP, or shut up.

[Foamhead]

You will notice none of the people working on it [TSLRP] tried to take me up on my offer of a full time programmer to help debug and finish the project. The reason is he/they don't want the attention to end and the arrogance of "no one but me can touch this". I simply feel for this community and how long they have waited for this and I want this nonsense to end.

Yeah...that's probably because none of them post here!

 

I mean seriously, great information sources you must have. Anyway Dash is the project leader, it is HIS decision on whether to bring anyone else in. He's busy, so everyone can wait.

 

As for 'feeling for the community', what an absolute load. Go and pay your programmers of create a version of TSLRP, or shut up.

 

 

I don't recall anyone asking you to be their PR man nor Obsidian asking you to be a moderator. You are just a guy riding the coattails of a guy riding coattails and i'll talk as much as I like, so wah wah wah cry to your mommy.

Edited December 1, 2008 by Foamhead

[Gorth]

...and I think that particular modus operandum of debating ends here.

 

On a related note, I believe one of the obstacles to your suggestion is, that they can not receive any help that could in any way be construed as "financial support" or "monetary contribution", not even indirectly, or they'll have LA's lawyers breathing down their necks. Somebody hosting their forums for free is probably already pushing their luck

[Meshugger]

The thing is, behind all this frustration there is also constructive critizism about the code of conduct that Team-Gizka implements when it comes to voluntary programmers and designers. Surely that is understandable, and in some times, welcomed as well.

[Darth_Windu]

Correct. Technically TG and any other mod/mod team is violating the EULA for LA games, meaning LA could shut down any mod they wanted to at any point.

[Darth InSidious]

Foamhead: Do it. But if you really want to show how amazingly crap TG is, you'll do it without using their work. If they suck so much, why do you need their slog?

 

Windu, what would it take for you guys to decide to find a new buildmaster, and another person to fix bugs? I'm sure that guys has done a great job in the past, and he would right now if he could, but sometimes as with cars if theres to many problems its just better go to ahead and get a new car and save on future repairs and problems. Nothing against Dashus, what he has done is great, and everyone has appreciated what he has done.

It's actually not in our hands - the closed betas don't get a say. It's up to the team themselves, and if and when they feel the need to find a new buildmaster, I'm sure they will. As to finding one, I can probably say without fear of contradiction that no currently active KotOR modder is up to the task. Likewise with bugfixers. It's unfortunate, but there you go.

 

The thing is, behind all this frustration there is also constructive critizism about the code of conduct that Team-Gizka implements when it comes to voluntary programmers and designers. Surely that is understandable, and in some times, welcomed as well.

Yes. It can be quite difficult to separate out the two, to be honest.

 

 

Correct. Technically TG and any other mod/mod team is violating the EULA for LA games, meaning LA could shut down any mod they wanted to at any point

That's a grey area; it's never been tested in a court so there's no way to really answer definitively on this subject. At least in western legal systems.

 

Different people answer this one in different ways... *shrug*. I'd lay off making any definitive comments on the legality, unless someone with relevant credentials would like to weigh in... ?

[Sharen the Exile]

That's a grey area; it's never been tested in a court so there's no way to really answer definitively on this subject. At least in western legal systems.

 

Different people answer this one in different ways... *shrug*. I'd lay off making any definitive comments on the legality, unless someone with relevant credentials would like to weigh in... ?

Since LA is the owner of everything crated using some content from their products, they could of course shut down every mod whenever they wanted, but I REALLY doubt it. I've recently found this official statement: http://www.lucasarts.com/company/release/news20021211.html which changed my opinion about them. In this statement they say how important modding community seems to be for them = they know people are modding and even though they don't support modding like other companies (relasing official tools, guides etc) they definitely have nothing against modding and are actually happy that you're helping in prolonging their product's lifetime = more money for LA. Unless you're porting content from other games by LA (or worse: different company's games) or use a trademarked lincese (Star Trek etc; which could get LA in trobules) or create a mod that allows you to blow up LucasArts Headquarters (or burn them if you're InSi), they will never touch your mod/do anything to prevent you from modding.

Edited December 1, 2008 by Sharen the Exile

[refuse]

With regards to the legality of mods, I think the problems arise in their distribution, rather their actual existence. I think that 'fair use' policies state something to the equivalent of allowing you to do whatever it is you want to a product after your buy it, but for your own personal purposes and enjoyment. The way you disseminate knowledge and original data from that though, whether it be in the form of mods or cr*cks to circumvent security measures is what brings over the wrath of the law.

 

I think most companies welcome modding communities for perpetuating interest and sales in their products, but like Lucas, might impose certain restrictions, with regards to content (risque material, such as pornography, racism etc), availability (no/limited financial gain to be made) and support (mostly none).

 

As for foamhead's comments, if you really don't care about this project or game, yet say you are willing to throw money at it, how can accuse TG of using 'altruism' as a front for inflating their egos? What is your interest in seeing this through?