TSL Restoration Project: The Phantom Deadline, READ FIRST POST BEFORE POSTING.

[Sharen the Exile]

With regards to the legality of mods, I think the problems arise in their distribution, rather their actual existence. I think that 'fair use' policies state something to the equivalent of allowing you to do whatever it is you want to a product after your buy it, but for your own personal purposes and enjoyment. The way you disseminate knowledge and original data from that though, whether it be in the form of mods or cr*cks to circumvent security measures is what brings over the wrath of the law.

 

I think most companies welcome modding communities for perpetuating interest and sales in their products, but like Lucas, might impose certain restrictions, with regards to content (risque material, such as pornography, racism etc), availability (no/limited financial gain to be made) and support (mostly none).

 

As for foamhead's comments, if you really don't care about this project or game, yet say you are willing to throw money at it, how can accuse TG of using 'altruism' as a front for inflating their egos? What is your interest in seeing this through?

I don't think Lucas has any problems with the distribution of the mods. Afterall, LucasFiles was officially sanctioned by LA which means they fully support free distribution of the mods. When it comes to a risky material, I have never seen a company that would accept risky/prono/racist material in the mods of their games and allow gamers to gain $ from producing the mods that use sth they created (I'm not even sure if the guys who made Half-Life mods actually get any cash from their now official mods, I'm not really into CS scene anymore).

Edited December 1, 2008 by Sharen the Exile

[Foamhead]

Foamhead: Do it. But if you really want to show how amazingly crap TG is, you'll do it without using their work. If they suck so much, why do you need their slog?

 

Windu, what would it take for you guys to decide to find a new buildmaster, and another person to fix bugs? I'm sure that guys has done a great job in the past, and he would right now if he could, but sometimes as with cars if theres to many problems its just better go to ahead and get a new car and save on future repairs and problems. Nothing against Dashus, what he has done is great, and everyone has appreciated what he has done.

It's actually not in our hands - the closed betas don't get a say. It's up to the team themselves, and if and when they feel the need to find a new buildmaster, I'm sure they will. As to finding one, I can probably say without fear of contradiction that no currently active KotOR modder is up to the task. Likewise with bugfixers. It's unfortunate, but there you go.

 

The thing is, behind all this frustration there is also constructive critizism about the code of conduct that Team-Gizka implements when it comes to voluntary programmers and designers. Surely that is understandable, and in some times, welcomed as well.

Yes. It can be quite difficult to separate out the two, to be honest.

 

 

Correct. Technically TG and any other mod/mod team is violating the EULA for LA games, meaning LA could shut down any mod they wanted to at any point

That's a grey area; it's never been tested in a court so there's no way to really answer definitively on this subject. At least in western legal systems.

 

Different people answer this one in different ways... *shrug*. I'd lay off making any definitive comments on the legality, unless someone with relevant credentials would like to weigh in... ?

 

 

I did not ever state that they sucked.

[Hassat Hunter]

I don't think Lucas has any problems with the distribution of the mods. Afterall, LucasFiles was officially sanctioned by LA which means they fully support free distribution of the mods. When it comes to a risky material, I have never seen a company that would accept risky/prono/racist material in the mods of their games and allow gamers to gain $ from producing the mods that use sth they created (I'm not even sure if the guys who made Half-Life mods actually get any cash from their now official mods, I'm not really into CS scene anymore).

 

LA usually only shuts down mod-projects made from other non-LA games (Battlefield, Half-Life etc.) that use Star Wars. Either because they rather want a game made from it theirselves (Battlefront) or to protect their intellect from such uses. I think it's alot rarer (I don't know any) for them to ban projects modding their own games.

 

And the CS guys and Gary's mod guy definitely get payed, since they are on Valve's payroll . Wheter it's just sallery or profits from their "mods" I don't know.

[refuse]

What I stated previously was an estimation of where everything stands legally (sorta), but it's up to Lucas to chase up people for distributing software that infringes on their copyrights. But with most mods they will clearly choose not to so long as the mod makers adhere to some guidelines, since it's obviously good for sales, marketting and all that jazz. So long as TG isn't using stuff they shouldn't be (like porting material from other sources/games or 'inappropriate' material), nobody from the Lucas legal team will be getting in a rush to contact them. I guess Lucas can afford to 'restrict' development of third party mods, unlike say HL, since video-games are only part of the Lucas corporation and therefore needn't worry as much about getting a game engine popularised.

[Hassat Hunter]

Concerning Issue 1067:

 

I know that problem takes into effect when a certain teammember is being "locked from the team". Most obvious example of this behavior is when selling T3 to Kodin. Since he can't join the team he's not gaining XP with the rest, resulting in him being levels lower than the PC when doing the Warehouse-quest. Only when the PC is added to the party again (On G0-T0's Yacht) his XP is set to the team's XP again and he instantly gains several levels. Maybe it's a side-effect of some added Nar Shaddaa stuff?

 

Another XP-factor is wheter or not a member is on the team. TSLCR had an issue with NPC's joining with too high levels, Kreia and Atton were lvl 9 on Peragus. But when Kreia got 'lost' and readded later on the EH she had the same XP as the PC, while Atton still had thousands more. Same with Bao-Dur, who had 4 more levels than the PC when joining. If re-added later he seemed to be "stuck" at the XP I left him, until the Exile gained on him, then he once again had the same XP value.

[Marcus]

Team-Gizka.org progress report (2:25 EST on Dec 03, 2008):

Tracking 1049 known issues

Severity: Open:

Block 0

Crash 0

Major 5

Minor 20

Tweak 1

Text 9

Trivial 8

Feature 11

----------------

Total 43

Edited December 3, 2008 by Marcus

[refuse]

Depressing!

[Miltiades]

Depressing!

Lower than Minor issues won't influence the release of TSLRP, as Dashus stated. But it still is much, yes. Most are HK Factory issues, which was to be expected. The one big major which has been open for some time now concerning completing the factory is actually a combination of several majors and minors I have reported in the last couple of days. It might clear up the issue for the team. Be warned, more bugs may (and probably will) follow.

[Darth_Windu]

Actually it's a good thing. Both Milty and myself have been able to find time to test, and we're finding more bugs to increase the quality of TSLRP.

[refuse]

Depressing!

Lower than Minor issues won't influence the release of TSLRP, as Dashus stated. But it still is much, yes. Most are HK Factory issues, which was to be expected. The one big major which has been open for some time now concerning completing the factory is actually a combination of several majors and minors I have reported in the last couple of days. It might clear up the issue for the team. Be warned, more bugs may (and probably will) follow.

 

I understand that, but the 5 majors to me seem enough to perpetuate development of the mod for a lot longer; after all, the issues were in single digits a short while back. I was secretly hoping for a late winter/xmas release on this (when I'd have some time off to devote to playing it), but that seems like a pipedream to me now. Oh well, better late than never, right?

[Darth_Windu]

Well that's why everyone associated with TSLRP keeps saying that the bug count isn't an indication of how close the mod is to release. All of the bugs that Milty and myself have come across were always there, we simply hadn't found them yet.

[Markus Ramikin]

Actually it's a good thing. Both Milty and myself have been able to find time to test, and we're finding more bugs to increase the quality of TSLRP.

This. Don't listen to the malcontents, they know not what they speak.

[Marcus]

Actually it's a good thing. Both Milty and myself have been able to find time to test, and we're finding more bugs to increase the quality of TSLRP.

Tracking 1049 known issues is a good thing? Nope. Thats a bad thing. Anything that causes 1049 bugs, fixed or not fixed, to the original piece of software is a bad thing. Team-Gizka rewrote a mess of scripts from bottom to top. This mod literally changes over 60% of the game. That is in no way a good thing. Even after the mod actually hits 0% on the bug counter, there is a high risk of game crashes, unseen bug issues, and other protential risks from installing this mod. I have seen a few myself.

 

Another issue people have not thought about is:

One of the greatest risks from passing along a mess of game files online are viruses. You can be the nicest person alive, have everything in place for scanning, and you can still pass along a computer virus. You can get a virus from the original modder's computer, get it from a server where the mod is uploaded, or you can get it from another modder attatched to the team.

Edited December 6, 2008 by Marcus

[Markus Ramikin]

Has it occured to you that a good portion of those bugs were in the original game? For instance the multitude of text issues, typoes, mismatched text to voice...

 

And then when you add material which was never polished off (or it would have been included in the original game), of course it's going to be full of holes, big and small. Honestly, if those 1000ish issues are a problem in your eyes, then just what exactly do you expect from a mod of this scope?

 

As to the virus issue... at this point you're just engaging in FUD. I have no idea why, but that's what it looks like.

[Hassat Hunter]

Anything that causes 1049 bugs, fixed or not fixed, to the original piece of software is a bad thing.

 

90% of those bugs were from the original TSL, that Gizka fixes.

Are you finally willing to admit TSL was rushed out of the door and therefore "Broken"?

 

This mod literally changes over 60% of the game.

Nope. They didn't rebuild the Droid Planet along with the Droid Factory... .

Edited December 6, 2008 by Hassat Hunter

[Marcus]

Anything that causes 1049 bugs, fixed or not fixed, to the original piece of software is a bad thing.

 

90% of those bugs were from the original TSL, that Gizka fixes.

Are you finally willing to admit TSL was rushed out of the door and therefore "Broken"?

 

This mod literally changes over 60% of the game.

Nope. They didn't rebuild the Droid Planet along with the Droid Factory... .

What proof do you have that definitively says Obsidian was responsible for creating those bugs? I want hard facts.

Edited December 6, 2008 by Marcus

[Hassat Hunter]

Ehm, they were present in 1.0 TSL? (and didn't get removed with either 1.0a or 1.0b...)

Edited December 6, 2008 by Hassat Hunter

[samm]

and whatever passing along viruses has to do with this is beyond me.

...

Now wait, it's not. It's a reason not to use TSLRP, am I right?

[Hassat Hunter]

Yeah, because everybody knows 99.9% of the mods out there have virusses, cause Modmakers are evil!

Edited December 6, 2008 by Hassat Hunter

[Darth_Windu]

I'm also curious what being a nice person has to do with getting virsus. Marcus - are you trying to tell us you have STD's??

 

Anyway the bug count going up is a good thing because, for those (read: Marcus) not paying attention, it means that more bugs get fixed so that when TSLRP does come out, it will be just that more polished.

[Meshugger]

Another issue people have not thought about is:

One of the greatest risks from passing along a mess of game files online are viruses. You can be the nicest person alive, have everything in place for scanning, and you can still pass along a computer virus. You can get a virus from the original modder's computer, get it from a server where the mod is uploaded, or you can get it from another modder attatched to the team.

 

Lol whut?

 

Millions of banks, telecommunication companies, software companies, bitTorrent trackers, ftp hosts and VPN users, seems to be doing fine. Sure every now and then some might get infected or are targets of an malicious attack, but on the whole, they seems to be doing just fine.

 

With that alarmist attitude, do you even download windows service packs and updates? upload/download to a remote repository? connect to a yum server and download the latest binaries? work with a software that requires you to do an database export every now and then? (believe me, those exports are often ridicolously big). Download the latest update and patches for your games? For example, the updated music/movie patch for TSL was a whopping 2 GB.

 

Are they all potential virii farms waiting to destroy your computer?

[Markus Ramikin]

What proof do you have that definitively says Obsidian was responsible for creating those bugs? I want hard facts.

 

OMFG. I'm 95% convinced you're a troll now.

 

The bugs, both currently openas well as those already fixed, are all listed and accessible from the Team Gizka website. There's your hard facts.

[CoM_Solaufein]

Lets stay on topic please.

[Rycal]

This mod literally changes over 60% of the game.

Nope. They didn't rebuild the Droid Planet along with the Droid Factory... .

 

Actually there is one that does restore the planet at least, and some cut content in form of cutscenes: http://www.m4-78ep.deadlystream.com/

 

I found it not so long ago and I have tried it out, really good work they've done, saw some a lot of new things. Naturally the mod has quite a bit to go but it really was nice to see some new content.

 

Anyways, back to topic

 

I heard that Dashus has some problems IRL, have you guys heard anything from him? I mean - would be sad if the mod got put on hold for 6 months due to that the leader has some problems, which is absolutely okay by me, I mean real life comes first. Just saying it'd be a shame if the project got put on hold.

 

Besides..what happened to those fine progress reports? Haven't had one in over a year

[Hassat Hunter]

Yeah, know of DStoneys mod (altough I haven't gotten around to playing it, waiting for the EP) but it's not a part of TSLRP.