PETITION: PLEASE CHANGE THE INFINITE AMMO DESIGN

[Patrick K Mills]

Sure it's simplistic, but give the player a choice INFINITE AMMO or FINITE AMMO. Pleasing as many customers as possible is a good thing.

 

$$$$$$$$$

 

Games don't really work like that. You have systems that rely on other systems that rely on other systems that all tie back into the first system. You make a major change to a core system and everything else has to change with it.

 

It would be like giving viewers the choice between Vader being Luke's dad or not- everything has to change to account for that choice because none of the scenes in the third movie would make any sense if Luke isn't a chip off the old block.

[Kissamies]

I was the part of the founding/core team for Action Quake 2 and I did a lot of the original docs for AHL and I'm *totally* in favor of unlimited ammo for this game.

Hmm, good enough for me. I especially liked the early versions of the mod. AQ2 too, but not as much.

[Master Assassin]

I'm not one for infinite ammo either...it does take away a certain element of fun if you never have to worry about ammo you can just spray indiscriminately. I know there are people with whom this will resonate and they will love it (casual gamer sect) but I know I will not.

 

Someone mentioned Deus Ex - I briefly played the second one and the gun sounded like a cap gun. I lost interest almost immediately. Uni-ammo was another idea I didn't care for.

 

So where is this petition?

[Tale]

It's sometimes easy to forget other games we've played with infinite ammo.

 

Did we ever have to reload or stock up ammo for blasters in KOTOR? Can it honestly be said that finite ammo would have brought anything of benefit to that game?

[Sand]

Sure it's simplistic, but give the player a choice INFINITE AMMO or FINITE AMMO. Pleasing as many customers as possible is a good thing.

 

$$$$$$$$$

 

Easy.

 

Use cheatcodes, gamesharks and trainers even. That's considered as the other choice right?

 

Or have it be a part of the game difficulty slider.

[mkreku]

Did we ever have to reload or stock up ammo for blasters in KOTOR? Can it honestly be said that finite ammo would have brought anything of benefit to that game?

That's a really weak comparison. You are never in direct control of a weapon in the KotOR games. It makes a whole lot of difference if you're firing every shot yourself by the press of a button as opposed to seeing your dress-up dolls jump around awkwardly on screen shooting whenever it is their turn. Ammo is directly related to that game mechanic.

[Joseph Bulock]

Sure it's simplistic, but give the player a choice INFINITE AMMO or FINITE AMMO. Pleasing as many customers as possible is a good thing.

 

$$$$$

 

Easy.

 

Use cheatcodes, gamesharks and trainers even. That's considered as the other choice right?

 

Or have it be a part of the game difficulty slider.

 

This would a lot more than I think you understand. Having an item go from never supplied because you can't run out to having to exist as a pick up, purchaseable item, not to mention now having states for the player who has no ammo for a given weapon is not even close to a trivial amount of work. Also, I just want to echo what Patrick said. The ammo decision has been very good for our game, and I hope everyone can keep an open mind until more info gets released, or maybe even until they get to play it.

[Xard]

this is no fun, you guys are just now participating when whole thing has been watered down

[Nick_i_am]

EDIT: wait, haha.

Edited June 3, 2008 by Nick_i_am

[Tale]

It makes a whole lot of difference if you're firing every shot yourself by the press of a button as opposed to seeing your dress-up dolls jump around awkwardly on screen shooting whenever it is their turn.

 

Do we truly know that's not going to be the case with this game or something similar? I somehow am wary to jump to the conclusion that Obsidian is going into a full-blown third person shooter.

 

Considering that this is a developer whose history is so heavily tied to D20 games, I hold my doubts that this'll play like Max Payne.

Edited June 3, 2008 by Tale

[Sand]

This would a lot more than I think you understand. Having an item go from never supplied because you can't run out to having to exist as a pick up, purchaseable item, not to mention now having states for the player who has no ammo for a given weapon is not even close to a trivial amount of work. Also, I just want to echo what Patrick said. The ammo decision has been very good for our game, and I hope everyone can keep an open mind until more info gets released, or maybe even until they get to play it.

 

I know it would be less than optimal, probably somewhere in the negatives but this is a modern era game is it not? It would allow players to choose which route they want to go. Do they want an easy game or a harder game.

 

I rather have no unlimited ammunition. Nothing annoys me more than anything than unlimited ammo in which the technology for which simply does not exist. It makes sense in Mass Effect due to the way weapontech has developed in the 23rd century, but early 21st? I don't think so.

[Xard]

It makes a whole lot of difference if you're firing every shot yourself by the press of a button as opposed to seeing your dress-up dolls jump around awkwardly on screen shooting whenever it is their turn.

 

Do we truly know that's not going to be the case with this game or something similar? I somehow am wary to jump to the conclusion that Obsidian is going into a full-blown third person shooter.

 

Considering that this is a developer whose history is so heavily tied to D20 games, I hold my doubts that this'll play like Max Payne.

 

You've read the previews right?

[Tale]

It makes a whole lot of difference if you're firing every shot yourself by the press of a button as opposed to seeing your dress-up dolls jump around awkwardly on screen shooting whenever it is their turn.

 

Do we truly know that's not going to be the case with this game or something similar? I somehow am wary to jump to the conclusion that Obsidian is going into a full-blown third person shooter.

 

Considering that this is a developer whose history is so heavily tied to D20 games, I hold my doubts that this'll play like Max Payne.

 

You've read the previews right?

No. No, I have not. I don't read magazines nor do I hunt down scans.

 

I fully anticipate it would be closer to Max Payne than KOTOR, but hold doubt that it'll be all the way over on that side.

Edited June 3, 2008 by Tale

[Musopticon?]

It makes sense in Mass Effect due to the way weapontech has developed in the 23rd century, but early 21st? I don't think so.

And Chain Shot special ability makes a heck of a lot "sense", right?

 

I'm for unlimited ammo, since shooting will hardly be essential in this game, if first looks and dev comments are of any indication. And anyways, if you ever come upon a situation where actually need more than a clip of ammo, you are one lousy spy. I don't think ammo management has a place here. The whole scavenging aspect is easy argue for in a game like Deus Ex and SS2, because they are shooters. Their primary gameplay(and please, I've played both, I know they are winnable with just the wrench/nightstick) mechanic was first person ranged combat, which was the most safe method of winning over the enemy.

 

Alpha just doesn't seem like a game where you could rely simply or even generally on your guns, so I think it's fair that the ammo management in streamlined away and the focus placed elsewhere.

[Nick_i_am]

Didn't Hades already win by saying that it was alright to have infinite ammo in Mass Effect, a game which heavily relies on action shooting gameplay?

 

Because, I mean, if this all comes down to an issue of 'realism' then hahahahahahahhahaklsdhaklhdsahada, losers.

[Sand]

Didn't Hades already win by saying that it was alright to have infinite ammo in Mass Effect, a game which heavily relies on action shooting gameplay?

 

Because, I mean, if this all comes down to an issue of 'realism' then hahahahahahahhahaklsdhaklhdsahada, losers.

 

Its not the gameplay, its the justification through setting and story that matters. If you have read the background and the technology depicted in Mass Effect it makes sense to have the weaponry have unlimited ammunition. However with Alpha Protocol, a setting that does not use such advance technology and more on par of current tech, it makes sense for the game not use unlimited ammunition.

 

It does not come down to realism, Nick. In fact the only one who brought up realism is you. Loser.

 

It all comes down to the game's setting and background.

Edited June 3, 2008 by Sand

[Tale]

Hammerspace magazines.

Edited June 3, 2008 by Tale

[random n00b]

And Chain Shot special ability makes a heck of a lot "sense", right?

Yeah, it does actually. It's a "superspy" setting after all, where that kind of stuff has a place. The ability to continuously create bullets out of thin air, I think, is putting a bit too much strain on suspension of disbelief.

 

I remember characters in The Matrix running out of ammo quite often, even with all their reality-bending powers. *shrug*

 

 

I'm for unlimited ammo, since shooting will hardly be essential in this game, if first looks and dev comments are of any indication. And anyways, if you ever come upon a situation where actually need more than a clip of ammo, you are one lousy spy. I don't think ammo management has a place here. The whole scavenging aspect is easy argue for in a game like Deus Ex and SS2, because they are shooters. Their primary gameplay(and please, I've played both, I know they are winnable with just the wrench/nightstick) mechanic was first person ranged combat, which was the most safe method of winning over the enemy.

 

Alpha just doesn't seem like a game where you could rely simply or even generally on your guns, so I think it's fair that the ammo management in streamlined away and the focus placed elsewhere.

Then why have stuff like combat shotguns, assault rifles, and skills that allow you to place three bullets in three heads in a split-second? Are you implying that all of that is "just for show"?

 

Meh. I reserve the right to change my opinion when more info is released, but just "it's really cool" and "we base a lot of our mechanics on that", isn't convincing at all.

[Nick_i_am]

It does not come down to realism, Nick. In fact the only one who brought up realism is you. Loser.

 

Infinite ammo? lol. Isn't AP suppsoed to be somewhat realistic

 

2nd page. Read thread THEN pretend you know what you're talking about.

 

Becides which, you're arguing that infinite ammo in ME is realistic for the setting and that it wouldn't be for AP, so you're pretty much just generating 100% mouth-poop again by saying that this has nothing to do with realism.

Edited June 3, 2008 by Nick_i_am

[mkreku]

Meh. I reserve the right to change my opinion when more info is released, but just "it's really cool" and "we base a lot of our mechanics on that", isn't convincing at all.

It's probably a sign something broken in my head, but I have to agree with numb.. er.. noob here. I have a really difficult time wrapping my mind around the concept of having unlimited ammo and still care about my weapons. Instinctively it just doesn't compute. I hope they prove my head wrong and that this game turns out much cooler than it seems to me right now.

[Slowtrain]

It does not come down to realism, Nick. In fact the only one who brought up realism is you. Loser.

 

Infinite ammo? lol. Isn't AP suppsoed to be somewhat realistic

 

2nd page. Read thread THEN pretend you know what you're talking about.

 

Becides which, you're arguing that infinite ammo in ME is realistic for the setting and that it wouldn't be for AP, so you're pretty much just generating 100% mouth-poop again by saying that this has nothing to do with realism.

 

I fully demand the right to use the world realistic in a relative sense!

 

Is more real than a loaf of bread? Or less real. That's how I look at it. lol

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Meh. I reserve the right to change my opinion when more info is released, but just "it's really cool" and "we base a lot of our mechanics on that", isn't convincing at all.

It's probably a sign something broken in my head, but I have to agree with numb.. er.. noob here. I have a really difficult time wrapping my mind around the concept of having unlimited ammo and still care about my weapons. Instinctively it just doesn't compute. I hope they prove my head wrong and that this game turns out much cooler than it seems to me right now.

 

I'm guessing either they don't have very convincing arguments or that they simply can't tell us about them yet.

 

Then again, this could leave more importance to actual strategy and less ammo managing (something common in spy games).

Edited June 4, 2008 by WILL THE ALMIGHTY

[Patrick K Mills]

Meh. I reserve the right to change my opinion when more info is released, but just "it's really cool" and "we base a lot of our mechanics on that", isn't convincing at all.

 

That's OK, I'm not testing my orbital mind control rays, I'm just telling you that we made the decision for a good reason and we're happy with it.

[Patrick K Mills]

I'm guessing either they don't have very convincing arguments or that they simply can't tell us about them yet.

 

Or we just don't feel like arguing on the internet.

 

Infinite ammo solves a number of very nasty problems, and what we lose from it is rather insignificant compared to the problems it solves. It is, like many features, something that sounds very desperately important when you read about it in a magazine, but after five minutes of playing you forget that it was ever an issue. If this game had been made ten or fifteen years ago and you read on a BBS or in the pages of CGW that we decided that the player character wouldn't starve do death if he didn't carry rations people would have had a fit, citing many of the same arguments that have been floated in this very thread.

 

That isn't meant to diminish the criticisms or those who are critical, I'm just trying to put some perspective on the (non)argument. In this game you don't have limited ammo because, quite simply, we wanted to spend our resources and your focus on other areas. That doesn't mean that we are crazy anti-ammo fascists who hate Jagged Alliance 2 and System Shock. A choice had to be made about what we want the player to spend time doing and thinking about, and where we put our efforts when building systems and assets. This is the choice we made. Ultimately the public determines if we made the right choice, but I'm fully confident that we did.

[Tale]

I believe in you, buddy! It's okay if I call you buddy, right?