The Peoples View On the "Gray Jedi" class of Neutral

[Bass-GameMaster]

Well Ive played and beaten the first and second KOTOR many times, but one thing I always was quite fond of was what Revan believed in. He believed in the greater good ; that killing 1 innocent life to ultimately achieve a higher goal was the right way. Now the jedi code is flawed through and through. It teaches u to learn and control the force, but disagrees with even the smallest acts of evil. The Dark Side relies to much on brutallity and unlawfull deeds. I think that is not the way either, so both are flawed but are needed for the galaxy and the force to remain. I would like to hear everyone's comments?

[Tale]

Movie Jedi are "Grey Jedi."

[Pidesco]

Here I was, thinking the thread was about "Gay Jedi."

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Those don't exist.

 

It's like with the church in the dark ages, they either live in total secrecy or get burned on the stake.

 

Seriously, I wonder if homosexuality is something considered evil in Jedi Code...

[Brdavs]

It`s a silly notion of fans that dwell on these things way to much for it to be good for them...

 

It`s quite easy really... did you go "ooooh that must be a "gray" paladin" at any point? I doubt it heh... You can play a paladin in an evil way but thats not playing like a paladin. That don`t hange if you slap "gray" infront of it to keep some magical connection or whatever... It`s what it is heh...

 

Face it, George layed "jedi" out as goody tooshoes and thats what "jedi" are... It`s what SW is about for Christs sake, clear cut good vs. evil, clishee on top of a clishee, tributes to OT in every game... Hate it or love it it`s what it is heh...

I`d venture to guess the rumoured long ObsidianE negotiations about K3 are cos they took K2 a bit away from a trademark SW game (like K1 was, in all its E0&1\2 glory )... I mean I think I read somewhere that C.A. stated Kriea was a character born out of his "hate of the clishee jedi/force" (something in those lines, cant be arsed to find quotes)... And we`re surprised LA seems to be stalling out negotiations heh? K2 turned out a fine RPG game... but it wasnt exactly trademark "sw game" lol, some actually preffered that (rpg hardcore base) and some preffered K1 (sw hardcore base)...

Edited November 5, 2007 by Brdavs

[Purgatorio]

Those don't exist.

 

It's like with the church in the dark ages, they either live in total secrecy or get burned on the stake.

 

Seriously, I wonder if homosexuality is something considered evil in Jedi Code...

 

Grey Jedi go both ways.

 

Grey Jedi believe using the dark side is not inherently evil; what your intentions are during an act is what makes the difference between a good life and a bad one "good" being just and reasonable. Of course evil is ignorance not a higher power; evil/ignorance can be seen in unreasonable behaviour- vengeance is not justice it's self gratification.

Edited November 6, 2007 by Purgatorio

[DAWUSS]

Here I was, thinking the thread was about "Gay Jedi."

 

Bastila, the Exile, and Mira in the starboard dorms of the Ebon Hawk...

[Pidesco]

You might as well add in the handmaiden and Visas for extra fun.

[Guest The Architect]

And your Mum.

[Jedi_Maverick]

Theory on Gray Jedi:

 

Potentium

 

Counter to millennia of Jedi teachings, the followers of Potentium claimed that there was no inherent evil in viewing the Force. They claimed that what others called the light side was actually just the Force itself, which is inherently good. This was backed up by the fact that Ashla, the ancient name of the Force, came later to describe the Light Side. What others therefore called the dark side was a perversion of the Force, twisted by those who used it. Believers of Potentium said that the potential for light and dark sides resided in the user, not the Force itself. They also thought that the Jedi Masters refused to believe in the Potentium view because it would mean the Jedi weren't needed to fight evil, for evil would not exist. And since there was no dark side, there were no dark side actions or Force techniques; in effect any action, good or evil, could be performed without risk as long as the intent wasn't evil.

 

About a century before the Battle of Naboo, the followers of Potentium were expelled from the Jedi Order, parallel to the Jedi Order's treatment of Gray Jedi as "misguided." Yoda and the rest of the Jedi Council didn't consider them Dark Jedi, but they said it was the duty of the Jedi to use the Force to protect others, not study its absolute limits. The Council said that testing the Force to its limits would lead to the dark side.

 

 

Grey Jedi

 

Gray Jedi was a term, sometimes used pejoratively, that described Jedi who were thought to operate independently and often outside the strictures of the High Council.

 

The term itself seems to date back as far as the Old Sith Wars. Certainly, during this time period, Gray Jedi themselves seem to have become associated even with a certain variety of robe. In the following millennia, the term continued to increase in usage, most likely due to the increasing trend towards centralization of power in the Order, and the increased prominence of the Jedi Council itself.

 

Most Gray Jedi had a tense relationship with the Council; while, for most intents and purposes, they were loyal members of the Jedi Order, their maverick natures often put them into conflict with it, especially against more conservative members of the Council.

 

It is perhaps this friction, combined with their unorthodox behavior that made it rare for a Gray Jedi to join the Council themselves or ascend to any position of real leadership in the order. After all, the High Council chose its own members, and most of the time their preference was for orthodox Jedi, such as the group described as the Old Guard. Qui-Gon Jinn's candidacy was rejected in favor of Plo Koon, and then Ki-Adi-Mundi, both of whom were more in line with the Council's way of thinking.

 

 

 

For instance, Kreia is a follower of the Potentium theory, while Jolee Bindo is a a Grey Jedi.

 

 

Source: Wookiepedia

[Bass-GameMaster]

Well I just read Heirs of the Force, and I thought the use of the main characters being caught by the empire and trained in the darkside further fueled there power, even tho they ended up good anyway.

[SteveThaiBinh]

He believed in the greater good ; that killing 1 innocent life to ultimately achieve a higher goal was the right way. Now the jedi code is flawed through and through. It teaches u to learn and control the force, but disagrees with even the smallest acts of evil.

I don't see a flaw in the Jedi code. Small acts of evil are indeed evil, and killing one innocent to achieve a higher goal only taints that goal, however noble it may have been in theory, as well as tainting the murderer.

[Chill]

Well I just read Heirs of the Force, and I thought the use of the main characters being caught by the empire and trained in the darkside further fueled there power, even tho they ended up good anyway.

 

Yes, well it comes naturally that when you study something from all it's angles you know more about it. The only thing bad about darkside is it's like cigarettes - when you use it for yourself, you can't very easily stop as you can't stop smoking becose you get used to it and like it

Lightside or Darkside, it's the action that tell us who's who in the end, and the gray jedis fit it just somewhere in between there, meaning that for a greater goal (or good), they can do things that most lightsiders and darksiders would not - an example being, Sith and Jedi would hardly be neutral in any situation... but they can be perceived sometimes as bad too.

 

The Council said that testing the Force to its limits would lead to the dark side.

Hmm, knowing the darkside doesn't make someone's bad. Using it for own goals does. Matter of fact, I think the best Jedis are actually those who once fell or was close to falling to the dark side and then 'redeemed' (so to speak) back to the lightside, and they are the most powerful too.

 

Followers of Potentium vs the Gray jedi, they are actually somewhat the same thing but with slightly different philosophy, so to speak. While gray jedis are still jedis who operate outside of the council, they are lightsiders as still being jedi, while followers of potentium in turn, by their philosophy, can and did use the darkside as well (saying that there are no evil force there), but both, if I'm not mistaken, worked outside of the council (especially after the potentiums were expelled) so the 'only' difference between them was that followers of potentium used all aspects of the force. I know it's a big difference, but aside that, both are actually the same thing and could be classified as gray jedi, no?

 

I don't know if Qui-Gon Jinn was a gray jedi, though, but he somewhat always seemed to me to be just the right mix of good personality, feelings and Jedi teaching. A perfect mix actually.

Edited November 23, 2007 by Chill

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Gray Jedi's are boring. They can't electrocute people because that's too evil, but they don't get Light side forec power bonuses. All they can do is push people.

 

Though in Kotor, pushing someone apparently kills them...

[Bass-GameMaster]

Well its like Kreia said, Revan wasn't evil. He was just true to him self he wanted to see how the darkside was and he found out. He ultmately ended up stronger in the end, sacrificing countless soldiers in battle to create ballance.

[Xard]

What the ****?

 

That's entirely wrong

[Guest The Architect]

Indeed that's entirely wrong.

 

What was meant by Revan "sacrificing" to the dark side was that he/she knew Malachor V would corrupt him/her before entering its surface. It was intentional, hence it was a sacrifice.

 

We know Revan knew because we know Revan wanted to become a Sith and find the Star Forge to be able to form an army of more power, ruthlessness, brute strength and such **** to combat this True Sith mob of dickheads.

 

But it's bull**** that Revan never had a change of plans in the JCW. The evidence is clear in KotOR that Revan was hell bent on conquering the Republic and destroying/converting the Jedi, not helping them out. It went from "doing this for the Republic" to "**** the Republic".

 

And in Star Wars, the simple rule is, if you want the Republic to eat **** and die, you're as good as evil. Besides, it would make the dark side look weak if someone could just use it without being corrupted.

 

I've heard Kyle Katarn is an exception because he uses dark side powers without being corrupted, but it's not as if he gave up the usage of the light side, whether as Revan did when he/she became a Sith.

Edited December 17, 2007 by The Architect

[SteveThaiBinh]

A little more family-friendly with the language please, gents.

 

You are entirely correct, though. Revan was responsible for the murder of billions. How is that not evil?

 

Kreia was a liar. The character is one of the real successes of Kotor 2.

[XRichX]

You are entirely correct, though. Revan was responsible for the murder of billions. How is that not evil?

I was under the impression, doing this would get you cookies no?

[Darth Hades]

As with any case of extremes, neither side is ever correct, and in order for success, a Balance must be acheived. As a Star Wars fan, this is how I see "Balancing the Force". Where one fails, the other should pick up and vice versa and when conflict arises, the greater good will (should) prevail.

 

In the case of Mace Windu, in force relation, he was very much "Gray" as his battle form encompassed Dark side elements, yet he was able to maintain rank of a most respected council member through this balance. Even his manner of death showed his aptitude for "Gray thinking" when he deemed Palpatine too dangerous to be left alive, though other events influenced how that turned out, it remains as is.

 

It ("Gray") can be broken down, which makes it diffcult to isolate completely what it encompasses. Yet there is a less seen fundamental flaw with Gray philosophy, if you break it down too much, eventually you will come to an impasse or you will become so aligned to it, that it would merit its own "Force Alignment" equal in balance to LS and DS.

[Bass-GameMaster]

Honestly U guys didnt get my point I meant it as a sacrifice venturing into the unkown and what not I just worded it wrong

[Darth Hades]

Honestly U guys didnt get my point I meant it as a sacrifice venturing into the unkown and what not I just worded it wrong

 

 

"The Peoples View On the "Gray Jedi" class of Neutral, Discuss the "neutral" phrase."

 

Some people strayed, but others like myself stayed on point in regards to the topic title.

[Bass-GameMaster]

Thank u! Ur post above desribes my feelings excatly!

[Barzarel]

Theory on Gray Jedi:

 

Potentium

 

Counter to millennia of Jedi teachings, the followers of Potentium claimed that there was no inherent evil in viewing the Force. They claimed that what others called the light side was actually just the Force itself, which is inherently good. This was backed up by the fact that Ashla, the ancient name of the Force, came later to describe the Light Side. What others therefore called the dark side was a perversion of the Force, twisted by those who used it. Believers of Potentium said that the potential for light and dark sides resided in the user, not the Force itself. They also thought that the Jedi Masters refused to believe in the Potentium view because it would mean the Jedi weren't needed to fight evil, for evil would not exist. And since there was no dark side, there were no dark side actions or Force techniques; in effect any action, good or evil, could be performed without risk as long as the intent wasn't evil.

 

About a century before the Battle of Naboo, the followers of Potentium were expelled from the Jedi Order, parallel to the Jedi Order's treatment of Gray Jedi as "misguided." Yoda and the rest of the Jedi Council didn't consider them Dark Jedi, but they said it was the duty of the Jedi to use the Force to protect others, not study its absolute limits. The Council said that testing the Force to its limits would lead to the dark side.

 

 

Grey Jedi

 

Gray Jedi was a term, sometimes used pejoratively, that described Jedi who were thought to operate independently and often outside the strictures of the High Council.

 

The term itself seems to date back as far as the Old Sith Wars. Certainly, during this time period, Gray Jedi themselves seem to have become associated even with a certain variety of robe. In the following millennia, the term continued to increase in usage, most likely due to the increasing trend towards centralization of power in the Order, and the increased prominence of the Jedi Council itself.

 

Most Gray Jedi had a tense relationship with the Council; while, for most intents and purposes, they were loyal members of the Jedi Order, their maverick natures often put them into conflict with it, especially against more conservative members of the Council.

 

It is perhaps this friction, combined with their unorthodox behavior that made it rare for a Gray Jedi to join the Council themselves or ascend to any position of real leadership in the order. After all, the High Council chose its own members, and most of the time their preference was for orthodox Jedi, such as the group described as the Old Guard. Qui-Gon Jinn's candidacy was rejected in favor of Plo Koon, and then Ki-Adi-Mundi, both of whom were more in line with the Council's way of thinking.

 

 

 

For instance, Kreia is a follower of the Potentium theory, while Jolee Bindo is a a Grey Jedi.

 

 

Source: Wookiepedia

 

George lucas said at one point in a forum interview that there no powers in the force that inheritly dark or lightside, its how they used that determines what they are, think it was in relation to Luke skywalker using choke on the orcs at Jabba the huts hideout in return of the jedi think it was cant remember.

 

But i think i balance personally my best view, a world cant truely be a unchaotic place without both good and evil, without a contrast things become a normality, a world without evil be a world of grey without light because everything we see wouldnt have a counter measure and we see in perspective to opposite, its everything we do nothing rarely ever has a inbetween answer.

 

Other example could be in a world of ego selfish a random act of generousity may be viewed as good, but had it been a world with non existing evil, where everone was generous to each other it would simply be seen as a normality a thing everyone does simply because they do, without any evil its hard for most people to see a contrast, in a equilibrium between its easier for ous to see good and evil when there contrasts to measure against.

 

Also think there alot of habits in never really being happy with what you have less you know its something you can never truely be sure youd always have, youd treasure something special to yourself that you worry for losing alot more than something you know will simply always be there, think its human nature.

[walkerguy]

Neither the Light or Dark side is wholly right. If Dark was 0 and Light 100, you should be around a 75, for a good balance or if you want to go to prision you can try a bit lower... but a 50 or a Gray, Neutral state is not the way to go. Nobody likes their drink warm: its either hot or cold.