This weeks hot topic: Immigrants

[taks]

yes, all the hub-ub about the US immigration problem rarely recognizes that our system is _much_ less restrictive than the rest of the world's, even for legal immigrants. illegals aren't tolerated in most other places, yet we're the racists/bigots? double standard if there ever was one.

 

taks

[Tale]

I'm pretty sure this topic started with Sweden. Why don't we get back to insulting them in regards to immigration?

[theslug]

Here is the thing, if all of the illegal workers were to be given legal status, they would then fall under the US labor laws concerning minimum wages, overtime pay, etc. Farms would then be forced to pay higher wages which would of course create the exact same scenario as if they were deported. Economically speaking. So we would be no better off and we would have millions of formerly illegal immigrants now living here.

Thank you, I was going to say the same thing but I'm too retarded to put it into words. But even if they aren't given legal status the longer they stay here the more people they have lobbying for them to get more privileges. It's like when they went on strike here in Las Vegas, even though they didn't belong to any sort of union or anything their employers didn't fire them for not showing up to work, illegals suck. Oh yeah and hurlshot that day they said that the casinos would fall and stuff, but they are still making millions. Glad someone has the sense to fight against hurlshot and his crazy post apocalyptic wet dream.

[Guard Dog]

I do not think what Hurlshot is saying is either crazy or post apocolyptic. He is correct in pointing out that if the illegals are all sent home it would create a change in the economic dynamic of many US marketplaces. Most noteably in agri-business. I'm saying the only way that change does not happen is if we do nothing (which we have been for over 20 years). But if we do nothing we are tacitly allowing the creation of a "slave" class which should also be unacceptable to everyone.

 

The US needs to act in the best interests of the US. Not in the best interests on Mexico, or anyone else. IMO that means regaining control of the border because as Taks correctly points out, there is more than just Mexicans looking for work coming accross. Beyond lower prices of goods due to lower cost of labor, the US as a whole does not benefit from illegal workers at all. Quite the contrary, they are a tremendous drain on the social infrastructure. Their kids attend schools they do not pay taxes to support. They receive free medical care in emergency rooms that the taxpayers pay for becasue they simply cannot. Do not even get me started on crime. If we are facing an economic shift no matter what, i'd say we err on the side of security.

 

As for Swedens immigration problems, it's all their own fault. If the women were not so good looking there would no be so many men lining up to move there.

Edited August 15, 2007 by Guard Dog

[Tigranes]

are you an illegal immigrant? if not, then if i were you, i'd be pissed at all the illegals that reside in the country. as a legal alien, you have to go through quite a mess to get in... the illegals simply walk across the border and get even more protections than you, here legally.

 

Frolick in the fields, taks. Do you really think I would actually be offended by this?

 

I'm not concerned about how some people get to 'walk across the border' and I have to go through all the mess, as in I'm not bothered about the 'unfairness' of it all or something, but when I see high school teachers who are so poor at English they couldn't buy meat at a supermarket let alone teach anyone, or people who come here and never try to learn English or learn about the country and just try to live exactly the life they did at home (and they're not a refugee), well, I don't think that's very good for anybody involved either.

[Hurlshort]

One thing most of us seem to agree on is that an effective work visa program. If there was a really effective program in place, I don't think patrolling the border would be nearly as much of a problem as it is today. But I don't see how you can create an effective work visa program without working hand in hand with Mexico. The arrangement needs to benefit both countries.

 

The reason I haven't put forth a lot of evidence for my hypothesis that our economy relies on immigration is that it's very tough to sort through all the biased information out there. Here's a website that makes a lot of my arguments:

 

http://www.lulac.org/advocacy/issues/immigration/truth.html

 

But you can go check out the CIS and see all sorts of different skews on statistics. The only truth I see is that it's an extremely complicated issue.

[Walsingham]

Think of places in the cosmos where species yet untold sneak across the galaxy to live in spots with better suns. Just imagine, humans flying to alpha centauri with their matresses tied to the top of their spaceship. The locals complaining because we're taking jobs away from the home grown alpha centaurians but some defend us by saying, "We're an amorphous mass of ooze. We don't even have hands to do the jobs they do."

 

 

Cant wins.

[Kaftan Barlast]

I'm not concerned about how some people get to 'walk across the border' and I have to go through all the mess, as in I'm not bothered about the 'unfairness' of it all or something...

 

 

You know, in the old days I used to get the full frisking and all everytime I set foot in an airport. But since I started wearing my patriotic badboy of a sweet Captain America authentic licensed marvel comic merchandise attire, Im like a gentle breeze through the security checkpoints. That guy who tried to smuggle a monkey under his hat? I could take the 8hour Stockholm-NYC flight with an orangutang down my pants and get away with it too. Oh yeah..

[taks]

hehe, i got "popped" by the TSA recently at the denver airport because i was looking around "suspiciously" and they made me get into the extra special search line. in fact, i wasn't being suspicious (at least, not intentionally), i was simply counting the number of TSA agents that were required to man the two metal detectors in operation at the time (the one being the extra special detector, with a bomb sniffer). i got to 18 before the guy noticed me (the guy politely asked me to step into the other line and i asked if there was a problem, he said no, and told me how much he loved my grateful dead t-shirt)... there were more that i had not yet counted.

 

this was also at the smaller terminal reserved for frontier flights. the other security checkpoint is much larger, probably with an exponential increase in bodies manning the detectors.

 

taks

[Arkan]

Here's the way I see it. As long as the living situation in Mexico is such that risking boarder jumping to work in he US for wages below that of even minimum, there is nothing our government can do -- outside of completely sealing off the US/Mexico boarder -- to halt the current exodus of illegals. Nor is it possible to round up some estimated 12 million already hear and lob them back over the fence. The trick, then is to make Mexico more appealing than it is, to the point that the trouble of sneaking over hear is not worth it, or, even better, have Mexico be a nice place ot live as a whole, not just a cool place for college kids to spend their spring breaks.

 

How to do this, on the other hand, is where the problem lies.

[theslug]

Here's the way I see it. As long as the living situation in Mexico is such that risking boarder jumping to work in he US for wages below that of even minimum, there is nothing our government can do -- outside of completely sealing off the US/Mexico boarder -- to halt the current exodus of illegals. Nor is it possible to round up some estimated 12 million already hear and lob them back over the fence. The trick, then is to make Mexico more appealing than it is, to the point that the trouble of sneaking over hear is not worth it, or, even better, have Mexico be a nice place ot live as a whole, not just a cool place for college kids to spend their spring breaks.

 

How to do this, on the other hand, is where the problem lies.

And since when is another country our responsibility.....Yeah don't answer that.

[Arkan]

Here's the way I see it. As long as the living situation in Mexico is such that risking boarder jumping to work in he US for wages below that of even minimum, there is nothing our government can do -- outside of completely sealing off the US/Mexico boarder -- to halt the current exodus of illegals. Nor is it possible to round up some estimated 12 million already hear and lob them back over the fence. The trick, then is to make Mexico more appealing than it is, to the point that the trouble of sneaking over hear is not worth it, or, even better, have Mexico be a nice place ot live as a whole, not just a cool place for college kids to spend their spring breaks.

 

How to do this, on the other hand, is where the problem lies.

And since when is another country our responsibility.....Yeah don't answer that.

 

I didn't say they were our responsibility per se, but rather that one option is to help improve the economic conditions of our neighbor may disuade them from climbing over our fence to use our pool.

[taks]

How to do this, on the other hand, is where the problem lies.

nigh unto impossible. the people themselves have to want it first, and it seems they'd rather take the easy route and simply walk across the border.

 

taks

[Hurlshort]

How to do this, on the other hand, is where the problem lies.

nigh unto impossible. the people themselves have to want it first, and it seems they'd rather take the easy route and simply walk across the border.

 

taks

 

That sounds like a bit of an over-generalization of the entire population of Mexico.

[taks]

exactly how many years does a country have to be considered 3rd world or "developing" without any signs of progress before such "over-generalizations" are valid? i think their history proves my point.

 

taks

[theslug]

Yeah Mexico is like the American Indians. They were and are going absolutely no where.

[Hurlshort]

How much do you actually know about Mexico? Have you done any reading on the history of their country, the political climate, or the condition of their different states? Seriously, if you are going to go spouting off generalizations about 100 million people, perhaps you should have some education on the subject.

 

Look, I live in a predominantly Latino neighborhood. My wife has family living in Mexico. I see undocumented workers every day as I drive around, I live a few blocks from run down shacks where many seasonal workers live before they head back to Mexico. I teach kids who leave school early in Winter and Summer because their families are returning to Mexico. I have parent conferences with people who can't speak English and I rarely can get a translator that isn't an older sibling. So when I talk about immigration, particularly undocumented workers who come from Mexico, it's not some political opinion, it's something I live in the middle of every day.

 

There isn't a bone in my body that wishes they would all just get shipped back to Mexico. I know they are an important part of my community, and my real wish is that the government would create an adequate program to allow them to do work in our country, work that we need done anyways.

 

And ultimately, the only way to create a program like this is if it's done hand in hand with Mexico. The Mexican government has serious corruption, but that doesn't mean 100 million souls in Mexico are corrupt. The US has a history of being better at giving orders than it is at giving advice, but that's not going to work with a neighbor. We need better diplomacy than what we are getting. I know it's a two way street, but it'd be nice if the US started paving the way, instead of raising walls and sqealing about our culture being polluted.

[Sand]

If I know of illegals I would report them and get them deported.

[Hurlshort]

If I know of illegals I would report them and get them deported.

 

You live in Iowa, stfu.

[Sand]

We have a growing illegal population as well. Most work at the food processor plants. Remember the Swift raids? Hundreds of illegals here in Iowa were arrested and in the process of being deported. Some of them compund their crimes by doing other criminal acts as identity theft and fraud. These people have no respect for our laws. They deserve punishment and removal.

[Walsingham]

We have a growing illegal population as well. Most work at the food processor plants. Remember the Swift raids? Hundreds of illegals here in Iowa were arrested and in the process of being deported. Some of them compund their crimes by doing other criminal acts as identity theft and fraud. These people have no respect for our laws. They deserve punishment and removal.

 

OK, now you're sounding like an 18th century British magistrate. ...In a Mel Gibson movie. Remember I'm not saying society has to accept laws being broken. I am saying, however, that what a man does to feed himself and his family is rarely evil.

[Kaftan Barlast]

I am saying, however, that what a man does to feed himself and his family is rarely evil.

 

 

But what if said man and his family are part of a satanic cult of cannibals?

[Meshugger]

In Finland we have almost no immigrants, expect for foreign labor working for international corporations. We let the Swedes deal with the immigrants

[Rosbjerg]

Denmark is quickly establishing itself as a rather racist country - much to my despair - our goverment recently made it mandatory for every immigrant to take a test on Danish culture and history, they get over 200 questions and if more than 40 is wrong they are not allowed to even enter the country.

 

the newest addition to this law is that if your parents were both immigrants (who passed the test) you yourself must also pass the the test at age 18 in order to become a Danish citizen - meaning people who were born and raised in Denmark, but have immigrant parents run the chance of being expelled and sent to a country they might never have visited (their parents original home country), if they fail a test.. now that's absurd!

[Kaftan Barlast]

In Finland we have almost no immigrants, expect for foreign labor working for international corporations. We let the Swedes deal with the immigrants

 

Ive always wondered how you managed to get away with that. If a Swedish politician would even hint at restricting immigration, that would be like he just tatooed "Im a racist bastard whol wants to deport refugees back to certain death and torture" in his forehead.