Fred Thompson will become the next President of USA

[Guard Dog]

it'd be more of we'd all be languishing with him in the gutter because there would be no power, no water, no dams, no roads, no houses, no boats, no planes because each of these are either insured or partially owned by the government in almost all cases. The government also pays for Airports and such, and without an income tax it wouldn't have enough money to pass gas much less invade iraq.

 

Don't know how it is in California, but I pay for my own power, water, house, and insurance. I pay a bill every month for all of those things. And it is not to the government since they are all private companies that provide them. Airports, roads, dams are all paid for by the State, and I have always been on the side of "State Rights". It is the very essence of Federalism. Taks has been pretty hard on you but he is right about one thing, you do need a better understanding of how government works.

 

Also the government isn't giving the homeless guy money... just taking less or none at all from him.

 

The government does just hand him money. Welfare, food stamps, HUD assistance, I could name a dozen more programs that Uncle Sam runs (with NO Constitutional mandate to do so) where people who do no work and pay no taxes get a check from the the government. Who do you think is funding all of that? Me. You. Everyone who earns income, invests money, buys a product made somewhere else. They are taking your money and giving it to someone else who did not earn it. Is that not theft?

 

I have no problem with Federal, State, or local taxes per se. There are a number of Constituionally assigned duties on the Federal State and Local governments that rquire tax money to perform. But I do have a problem when that tax burden is ratcheted up tp 45-50% (collectively) to fund programs the Constitution does not allow to exist (at least at a federal level). I would be making the exact same argument in the State of Florida were to pass a law that it's state constitution did not allow.

[Walsingham]

GD I think you're being a wee bit deliberately dense. I think Calax would agree with me when I pose a different analogy.

 

You put 100 bucks in a box and vote ona guy who will spend that money. Your first vote brings in a fellah who spends some of it on a homeless guy. The next time the vote is held you bring in another guy who spends money on a homeless guy. And the third time the thing happens again. Where is the theft?

[Guard Dog]

GD I think you're being a wee bit deliberately dense. I think Calax would agree with me when I pose a different analogy.

 

You put 100 bucks in a box and vote ona guy who will spend that money. Your first vote brings in a fellah who spends some of it on a homeless guy. The next time the vote is held you bring in another guy who spends money on a homeless guy. And the third time the thing happens again. Where is the theft?

 

I'm not being dense but the analogy is simplistic for the purposes of discussion. Obviously the subject of taxation and proper allocation of tax income is a far more complicated subject than can be adequately covered in a thread like this. But it would make a good thread and it is something I know a little about.

 

But to address your analogy I am not putting that $100 in the box out of the goodness in my heart. It is being taken from me forcibly. Does that not make it theft? If I forced you to give me $100, then paid to wash you car, does that change the fact I took your money? Suppose then I used the rest of that money to buy Calax lunch, hired some guys to beat up Sand, then paid myself a salary with the remainder? Would you just say "well at least I got my car washed". Or would you say, "hey, why the hell do I have to pay $100 when all I got for it was a $10 car wash" ?

 

Simplistic yes, but I think it makes the point on principle.

Edited July 25, 2007 by Guard Dog

[taks]

GD is right, income tax is involuntarily taken from you. usage taxes, i.e. taxes on good and services, are voluntary. in most usage schemes, "essential" goods and services are not taxed, btw. that means your discretionary spending is taxed, which means you have a choice. don't wanna pay the tax, don't buy it.

 

taks

[Calax]

GD has a fantastic way of making opinions look like facts.

[Guard Dog]

GD has a fantastic way of making opinions look like facts.

Such as?

[Meshugger]

Taks, GD and all the other americans: How exactly does the tax-system work in each of your states? And what is payed to the federal government? The more i read, the fuzzier it gets.

 

Here in Finland there's tax on goods as well as income-tax. But it is all payed to our local government, not the EU. Our government however, pay a certain amount to Brussels every year though.

[Guard Dog]

Taks, GD and all the other americans: How exactly does the tax-system work in each of your states? And what is payed to the federal government? The more i read, the fuzzier it gets.

 

Here in Finland there's tax on goods as well as income-tax. But it is all payed to our local government, not the EU. Our government however, pay a certain amount to Brussels every year though.

Now that is a BIG question. This could easily become a very long post, so I'll try to keep it short.

 

The first thing you need to understand is that the US and Europe are very different in political makeup. In most European countries there is little to no disparity between government at the local and national levels. In the US, Local, State, and Federal governments operate almost independent of each other. The reason is the each level serves different functions. For example, police are paid for and managed at the local level (meaning county, parish, city). Road and highway construction is paid for and managed at the State level. The military, homeland security, natural resource management, etc are run at the federal level. There are many others obviously but you get the idea.

 

The federal government collects taxes in a number of ways. The main way is by taxing income. Every paycheck they take out a percentage. The tax is progressive so the more you earn, the higher the percentage they take. Corporate income is taxed in a similar way but it uses a marginal tax rate rather than a progressive one. The federal government also taxes profits on investments. This is called a Capital Gains Tax (and IMHO is evil and unconstitutional). Another way the Federal government taxes is through excise taxes. These appear as surcharges on gasoline, ammunition, phone bills, cable bills, etc. The tax is not levied on the citizens but on the companies who provide the services. Of course, those companies pass the cost down to the end user so the citizens end up paying. Another is the "Transfer Tax" or as we call it the "Death Tax". If I were to die today and my estate is worth over a certain amount (not sure what the figure is these days) the Federal Government would seize half of it as a "Transfer Tax" before my heirs could even file a probate claim. The Federal Government is also funded in other ways but these are the main ways taxes paid to the federal level.

 

Each State taxes differently. Some tax income, some property, all use sales taxes and excise taxes. Some (like New York for example) use all of them. In Florida we have a 6% statewide sales tax on all non essential purchases. So if I buy a 6 pack of Rolling Rock for $6, the total charge will be $6.36 (unless there is a local sales tax, more on that in a moment). Now that 6 pack does not actually cost $6 by itself. It also included a 3% excise tax on the distributor, who also paid another excise tax on the gas he used to deliver it to the store. He passed all of those costs on to the store owner who passed them on to me by setting the cost at $6. That is what we fiscal libertarians call "double dipping". But I digress. Florida also collects money via a number of other fees such as hotel bed taxes, business licensing fees, hunting and fishing licenses, vehicle tags, etc. It is really a long list.

 

The last way the state collects revenue is by property tax. Every year I get a bill from the county for an Ad Valorem assessment based on what they think the value of my house is. Last year the bill was $4150.00. That money goes mainly to the county and city governments who use it to pay for the police, fire department, public works, libraries, schools, things the government is SUPPOSED to be doing. The state actually handles and administrates schools so it does get a percentage of the property taxes but the lions share goes to the local governments. Some local entities (like the City of Miami for example) also impose a sales tax. Usually it is small, 1-2% but it is paid in addition to the statewide tax.

 

All in all the total tax burden on the average American citizen varies with where they live. But it is between 35-55%. And to think, we threw the British out over a 3% Stamp Tax. What the hell happened?

[taks]

colorado has a state income tax, so does missouri. it comes out after paying federal income tax, which simply results in the federal tax being counted as a deduction. our property tax is somewhat lower than florida's however, but higher than missouri's.

 

GD missed the two taxes _everyone_ pays: 6.9% for social security, though that caps at just under $100k of income (i.e., this tax isn't imposed on any income above that) and something like 0.3% for medicare/medicaid, which has no cap.

 

taks

[Meshugger]

This sounds weird, you have the same amount taxes compared to what your income (18%-56%) as in most of Europe. There's also capital gain tax (Which means that if i sell my stocks, i have to pay 22% tax on it. I haven't sold one single one yet ) But what i don't understand is the property tax, if that funds your local governments, basic service + that little single-digit extra for social security, what is the point of income tax then? Where does that go?

[Guard Dog]

This sounds weird, you have the same amount taxes compared to what your income (18%-56%) as in most of Europe. There's also capital gain tax (Which means that if i sell my stocks, i have to pay 22% tax on it. I haven't sold one single one yet ) But what i don't understand is the property tax, if that funds your local governments, basic service + that little single-digit extra for social security, what is the point of income tax then? Where does that go?

The income tax is a federal tax. It goes to the federal govenment. It uses that money to fund the military, space program, homeland security, there are thousands of programs. National Parks, HUD, Welfare, FCC, FAA, TSA, resource explorations, the list goes on and on.

Edited July 26, 2007 by Guard Dog

[taks]

meshugger, the social security tax is actually referred to as "the payroll tax" and it is matched by the employer, i.e. it is actually 13.8% of the first $95k or so. property tax is strictly for local/state governments to use for their services.

 

in colorado, we have what is known as TABOR, a tax-payer's bill of rights. that means any taxes must first be approved by the populace with a majority vote. as a result, we now have a lot of "fees" since nobody will vote for a tax increase. wordsmithing at its best.

 

taks

[Meshugger]

This sounds weird, you have the same amount taxes compared to what your income (18%-56%) as in most of Europe. There's also capital gain tax (Which means that if i sell my stocks, i have to pay 22% tax on it. I haven't sold one single one yet ) But what i don't understand is the property tax, if that funds your local governments, basic service + that little single-digit extra for social security, what is the point of income tax then? Where does that go?

The income tax is a federal tax. It goes to the federal govenment. It uses that money to fund the military, space program, homeland security, there are thousands of programs. National Parks, HUD, Welfare, FCC, FAA, TSA, resource explorations, the list goes on and on.

 

Now i understand more on your anti-government sentiments I understand the military, space program and homeland security. But the rest? That could easily be done on a state level. I really feel sorry for you. If the same model would be applied to the EU, people would be hanged.

[taks]

well, the problem is _very_ complicated. first, the US is the largest employer in the world. 6-7 million employees. 2.5% of the US population works for the federal government, not counting state/local employees. the larger the bureaucracy, the more inefficient, and the more diminishing returns result. feeding that bureaucracy takes lots o dollars. also, while we may have a total tax bill that approaches yours, it is not spread as yours is. in the EU, probably anywhere, $100k/year (equivalent) would be in the top bracket from what i understand. here, not even close. $100k/year translates to around $60-70k/year after adjustments if you know how to work it (deductions and so forth). that $100k/year, however, is in the top 10% of total incomes, however, but the marginal rate is only 28% federal, maybe less (haven't checked in a while). the taxes are scaled, too, so the first XX$ are taxed at the lowest rate, the next XX$ are taxed at the next rate and so forth.

 

the book the IRS uses for all of this is probably 15-20 feet thick. complicated is an understatement.

 

taks

[Calax]

GD has a fantastic way of making opinions look like facts.

Such as?

the income tax being considered stealing. That's an opinion that you stated as a fact.

 

One mans trash is another mans treasure, Does that mean that all treasure is trash?

[Tale]

Is there a catchy phrase pertaining to the confusing of arguments with evidence?

[thepixiesrock]

"What you talkin about Willis"?

[Guard Dog]

GD has a fantastic way of making opinions look like facts.

Such as?

the income tax being considered stealing. That's an opinion that you stated as a fact.

 

I compared income tax to theft using a very clever and appropriate analogy. I did not equivocally state "income tax is theft". Taks did that. I just made an argument supporting his assertion.

[taks]

by definition, it is theft. income tax is the forcible, i.e. under threat of imprisonment, removal of your earnings. the fact that it is performed by a government agency does not change that fact.

 

taks

[taks]

One mans trash is another mans treasure, Does that mean that all treasure is trash?

bad analogy.

forcibly removing one man's treasure is theft, no matter how you want to view it.

 

taks

[Calax]

by definition, it is theft. income tax is the forcible, i.e. under threat of imprisonment, removal of your earnings. the fact that it is performed by a government agency does not change that fact.

 

taks

except many things the government does would be considered illegal if any citizen did it. but because they are the government they get to do it.

[taks]

except many things the government does would be considered illegal if any citizen did it. but because they are the government they get to do it.

that's the point i've been trying to make, and why this is a problem you do not seem to comprehend.

 

taks

[Calax]

except many things the government does would be considered illegal if any citizen did it. but because they are the government they get to do it.

that's the point i've been trying to make, and why this is a problem you do not seem to comprehend.

 

taks

Except that you take the stance that sometimes it's ok... like when going to war, or domestic spying.

[Pop]

Of course the government can do some things lawfully that others can't. Should we charge the police with kidnapping when they arrest someone and put them in jail? If I locked someone in my basement it would obviously be a crime.

Edited July 28, 2007 by Pop

[taks]

sometimes you're a moron. that's part of the constitution, you know the whole legal system and all... duh.

taking your income was NOT until the 16th amendment, which is in direct conflict with most of the bill of rights.

 

oh, and the only way you can legally be put in jail is if you first break the law... duh number two. do you people actually _use_ the brain you were born with?

 

taks