Why MMO's should ditch levelling

[Hurlshort]

I was playing WoW last night and reached level 57. I ended up travelling through a few of the lower level areas I used to haunt, and I thought how odd it is that these level 40 creatures that used to tear me apart barely can scratch me. I logged off and went to bed...

 

Now as I tossed and turned, I could feel a few familiar aches and pains. I play hockey once a week, and I try and stay pretty active. I'm 28 years old, which isn't ancient, but I'm definitely more sore on a daily basis than I was 5 years ago. I'm a smarter hockey player, maybe even better with the puck, but I'm not as fast as I once was. I also don't recover as fast from a good hit.

 

It bothers me that in MMO's there is no concept of aging, when it is such a huge part of real life. Imagine what a different experience it would be if, the faster you levelled, the slower your recovery rate and speed became. Instead of a levelling curve, you had a levelling hump that eventually went downhill.

 

The whole concept of powergaming and reaching that end level would change, because it would be more important enjoy the peak years and be cautious during the brittle years. End game content would be done in the prime of your life, rather than in the last years of your character. This would also even the playing field for casual gamers somewhat, as they may not reach the peak as quickly but the also won't decline as fast.

 

I don't know, it's just something I'd like to see. It'd be great if they implement family lines as well, so as your character came close to retirement age, you could take on a new character that would carry on the family name.

[kirottu]

Getting old isn

Edited June 24, 2007 by kirottu

[metadigital]

Ah, but it IS a major part of DnD ... one of the major controls on level nine spells is that they age you ... a Wish spell ages you about 20 years, IIRC.

[Musopticon?]

It is a major part, but hardly any adventures actually retire until the campaign becomes boring/too hard/whatever for the players, so the actual mechanic is hardly ever realised. 9th level spells are reserved for epic campaings usually and there the characters have often already managed to fool death and old age. Lichdom for instance.

[Aram]

I was playing WoW last night

 

See, there's your problem right there.

[metadigital]

It is a major part, but hardly any adventures actually retire until the campaign becomes boring/too hard/whatever for the players, so the actual mechanic is hardly ever realised. 9th level spells are reserved for epic campaings usually and there the characters have often already managed to fool death and old age. Lichdom for instance.

Verily that is true. But that doesn't discount the mechanic ... in fact it could be used to help make the life of the PC more relevant, more special because it is limited ... can you imagine fighters losing strength and dexterity with age, and would end up as a private militia (if they are unlucky), or a leader of same (if a bit luckier). Magic Users end up as tutors, and old clerics just end up dribbling in the corner ... er, helping out in the poorer parts of town, or becoming an episcopal leader (if their religion has such).

 

I'm suggesting that people would play these roles (though they could easily do so: not everyone wants to play an

[Hurlshort]

To soothe the power gamers, perhaps each generation will grow even stronger because they'll have the teachings of their ancestors, and access to gear that has been passed down through the family. Gear itself could take on some symbolism, instead of just being tossed for the next best thing to come along.

[Calax]

To soothe the power gamers, perhaps each generation will grow even stronger because they'll have the teachings of their ancestors, and access to gear that has been passed down through the family. Gear itself could take on some symbolism, instead of just being tossed for the next best thing to come along.

your essentially envisioning an mmo where instead of say, leveling you'd fight for one year/month as one person then they'd retire and the next year/month you'd play as their kid?

[Azarkon]

The idea is interesting, but it needn't come with all the drawbacks of aging. See EVE Online for example of a system in which "age" rather than "exp grinding" develops your character.

 

One problem with EVE's system that's worth mentioning, though, is that it's pretty hard for newer players to catch up when the older players have an intrinsic advantage in age...

[Hurlshort]

That is why youth should have some advantages.

[Tale]

I honestly see nothing of value in this idea. And your description seems a little nonsensical. You want age to be based on accomplishment? How does this benefit anyone? How does it encourage anyone to enjoy peak years? All you've done is shift endgame from level 60 to level 25 and encourage players to start new characters over. Most will simply be frustrated at constantly having to start over and not bother playing long.

 

Levels are not equivalent of age. They are the result of experience. A man can live in a room for 60 years and experience nothing. Another can go out in the world and experience in but 4, during his peak, what most others never do in a lifetime. It's a measure of accomplishment and learning. Nothing about that makes you weaker.

 

If you wanted to make it based off time, you're still facing the problem of nonsensically forcing everyone to constantly reroll characters and AFK through the early years.

 

Low levels have no advantages because inexperience has no advantages. Everyone is assumed to be at their peak age in most of these games.

 

 

To salvage the idea you'd have to do two things.

1) Make the aging mechanic entirely seperate from levelling. The gaining of experience and strength do not make you older and weaker. Nor does experience and strength come wholly automatic with age.

2) Find some serious benefit for maintaing an aged character. Something people will actually want. Keep in mind, MMOs are a competitive market. It'd have to be more interesting to people than simply not having the age mechanic at all.

Edited June 25, 2007 by Tale

[Hurlshort]

Ouch, Tale, why don't you tell me how you really feel about my idea?

 

I suppose the aging would have to be based on time in game. If the game is a skill based game, like Ultima Online or Asheron's Call, then you aren't developing any skills being afk and therefore are simply wasting the early years.

 

I wouldn't say it's a perfect idea. It obviously has a lot to iron out, but I'm tired of the whole levelling treadmill. It's never been all that fun to me. There are a ton of people that reach the end of the treadmill and quit, so how is that any different than doing so after your peak years? I'm just trying to make it a more a natural curve, or enhance the experience of multiple characters, or at the very least change something of this constant treadmill every MMO seems to be locked on.

[Tale]

If you want to do anything of what you're saying, I think it would be more adviseable to come up with a functional approach over an awkard conceptual approach. Take a look directly at the specific aspects of the game you want to alter and work out from there. This idea seems like you're taking an awkward concept (aging) and trying to shoehorn it to full some design goals (peak years, etc).

 

You want to get rid of the levelling treadmill? How about a game design that minimizes differences between levels? Or perhaps a design like Planetside has which is "cert" based.

You talk about hitting the end of the game and quitting and trying to compare that to "peak years" when the end of the game is essentially the "peak years." All you're doing is trying to shift the endgame to earlier and call it something different.

Want a more "natural" curve? How about a design that isn't filled with junk levels? Make each level more meaningful or simply alter the experience required curve.

 

 

This is just my philosophy of game design, however. Focus on targetted improvements to systems and how you want those specific systems to change. Don't try to shoehorn in awkward concepts to fill the roles of making those changes.

[Walsingham]

I think it's a great idea, speaking as a fading codger myself. And it would put an interesting new factor into gaming your characters. The things you do when young wouldn't be the things you do when old. In fact, nuts to it, why not get to raise kids?

 

Tale I seee this as something that runs in parallel to the normal classing system. Basically towards middle age your physical stats begin to diminish. Then supposing you make it into seriously advanced years then your mental faculties become restricted.

 

Of course it would never sell, because it doesn't mean bigger explosions.

[Tale]

I could see it working in a sim game. But not a fantasy or action game.

 

Edit: Strategy game, too. Maybe a sandbox MMO that's socially oriented over action oriented. Something closer to Second Life than World of Warcraft.

Edited June 25, 2007 by Tale

[Wistrik]

Kids

 

That takes me back to LORD (Legend of the Red Dragon), a precursor to today's MMOGs. Each child (by birth or adoption) gave the parent/guardian an extra forest fight, and each forest fight granted experience and gold if you were successful. The game didn't include aging as a factor, but time went on. My 'wife' was a girl across town (BBS was cool because we all knew each other in person) and we had a few kids of our own in the game. She'd 'give birth' and announce it to me, then we'd agree on a name together. Adopted children remained nameless (as I recall). I really enjoyed the family aspect of the game. The added XP from all the kids was nice too.

 

I think level should remain, as it is a measure of our accomplishments, which tend to occur at a faster pace than the aging process. I mean, even taking my time in BG1, I only manage to age maybe three months of game time. A person might invest as many as 10 game years in a MMOG, which wouldn't really have a big impact on their character's performance.

 

In an RPG I would factor in age by means of AI scripting. Older creatures would be wiser than younger creatures, even though they might perhaps be at the same level of accomplishment, so a younger creature might waste spells and use incorrect attacks and counterattackes, while an older creature would be a greater challenge because it would use its abilities more efficiently. This is impractical for player characters because the player is in charge. In that sense, a new player is far less of a threat than a veteran player who's invested a year or more into playing the game. Thus player character age doesn't need to be incorporated into the game any further than perhaps incrementing it by a year after X amount of active play time.

Edited June 25, 2007 by Wistrik

[metadigital]

Why does ageing have to replace levelling?

 

Surely it is a separate mechanic: perhaps at certain peak ages a PC would level faster, for example learning quicker at earlier ages and, at later ages, the advantages of greater experience (as opposed to XP) would contribute to balance out the slower levelling at that age.

 

You also seem to be ignoring the benefits of old age. Certainly there are disadvantages, like a lessening of dexterity and strength; there are advantages imbued by a lifetime of heuristic learnings, so that intelligence and wisdom would naturally increase (for a start). Sure memory would need to be maintained with exercises, much like physical skills, but that is separate to mental acuity.

[Tale]

Surely it is a separate mechanic: perhaps at certain peak ages a PC would level faster, for example learning quicker at earlier ages and, at later ages, the advantages of greater experience (as opposed to XP) would contribute to balance out the slower levelling at that age.

This is the only good idea for it I've heard. The age of the character alters how fast XP is gained. However, I see this idea ultimately screwing over casual players, because they may not use their time as efficiently. Which would be at odds with one of Hurlshots originally supposed benefits of helping casuals. I don't see real benefit to it or how it would improve anything.

 

You also seem to be ignoring the benefits of old age. Certainly there are disadvantages, like a lessening of dexterity and strength; there are advantages imbued by a lifetime of heuristic learnings, so that intelligence and wisdom would naturally increase (for a start). Sure memory would need to be maintained with exercises, much like physical skills, but that is separate to mental acuity.

Wisdom and intelligence are the benefit of experience, not physical age. If a game already has character growth mechanics based on experience, having an artificial wisdom and intelligence boost with age is miraculously both redundant and nonsensical.

 

 

 

Since I should probably be more constructive directly to the musings, here's how I think an MMO game featuring aging could reasonably be implemented. I've established that I don't feel it's all that reasonable to have it in a way similar to typical MMORPG. So, how about an MMOStrategy game? Family lines help to establish armies. In the "peak years" the character fights on the battle lines. In the aged years, he moves to a rear line position and uses the accumulated experience gained from combat to improve overall strategy and tactics. He has children which he can pass on some of this information to, not only increasing the size of the army, but increasing the overall competence and ability of the army with time.

 

Of course, I'm not sure how well an MMO strategy game would work out from a functional perspective.

 

Perhaps even this structure could be used for a ground up MMO. A single starting character, opening up new character slots after every few "years" and allowing the aged character to retire and simply provide "family benefits" which strengthen the newer characters on the account. It would have to be sandbox styled and designed with a greater interest in larger goals than character development and investment.

Edited June 25, 2007 by Tale

[Pop]

Surely it is a separate mechanic: perhaps at certain peak ages a PC would level faster, for example learning quicker at earlier ages and, at later ages, the advantages of greater experience (as opposed to XP) would contribute to balance out the slower levelling at that age.

This is the only good idea for it I've heard. The age of the character alters how fast XP is gained. However, I see this idea ultimately screwing over casual players, because they may not use their time as efficiently. Which would be at odds with one of Hurlshots originally supposed benefits of helping casuals. I don't see real benefit to it or how it would improve anything.

They actually do this in sports games, sometimes. Fight Night Round 3 come to mind. If you create a boxer, his stats are low but when he trains he makes leaps in his skills because he's young and limber. As you fight toward the championship (there's usually about 15-20 weeks between fights) your stats get higher but the gains from training diminish, to the point where at the end of the game your stats are pretty much set in stone, as they gradually diminish and all you have to train constantly to keep them static.

 

As for D&D, age comes into play with more than just epic level spells, it's just that everybody ignores them. Haste, for example, ages characters affected 1 year every time it's cast. I can't remember if it's 2nd or 3.5 or both, but if BG2 played by those rules, the party would be octogenarians by the time they made it to the city gates.

[metadigital]

Bummer if your plate mail has a permanent Haste ...

[Walsingham]

Dear sweet Holy Quinquagulon! You're right. That would be drastic.