Dragon and Dungeon Magazines canned.

[Walsingham]

We had a really good magazine called Roleplayer Independent back in the day. If they'd had the option of being online based they might still be with us.

[metadigital]

^^ That's the salient point, methinks. It's a case of t'internet or nuffink.

[Pop]

I don't know where the **** else to put this, so nyeh.

 

I've been going for a few months without fresh D&D experience. I mean, I beat NWN2, and that was nice, but I've got a craving. A craving for more good old D&D narrative.

 

But I have no people to play with (even with a number of ideas bouncing around in the noggin) and in these lowest of times with no blood to feed on I've felt the urge to subsist on the rats of the D&D world - novels.

 

So the question I pose to you is this - What are some decent Forgotten Realms-based D&D novels out there?

 

Do not dissuade me. Believe you me, I'm plenty embarrassed already. This happened once before, and I bought a number of RA Salvatore Drizzt books, which were awful, but my D&D addiction forced me to consume them, excruciatingly, page by page. So I would ask that you all spare me that again and point me towards something less painful.

Edited May 20, 2007 by Pop

[Walsingham]

I read a couple of halfway decent Planescape books recently. Hang on, I'll just go look up what they were. Yup... the 'Blood Wars' trilogy.

[Pop]

Hmm, noted. Howsabout Forgotten Realms stuff? It's my favorite setting, after all. I had a hard time getting into Torment.

[dunniteowl]

Well, that's sort of too bad. I really liked reading Dragon Magazine these last 20 some odd years, though I haven't had or seen a new issue in over 9 years... Just had other more important things of late. I figured firstly that the online format was sort of inevitable, however, since WotC picked up D&D (ne: TSR et al) I have watched it slowly spiral into the marketing scheme of feeding the masses and making it "fresh" and cool for the new folks, instead of making sure the core concepts of D&D remained and that it was kept about the use of imagination and having a small group of folks with their own ideas.

 

Dragon and Dungeon both were always something that I enjoyed reading and getting ideas from, making adjustments to my game world designs (and of course, I have several rejection slips for articles I sent, too -- good times.) going online is probably the most sensible thing. However, I now am going to have to dig out my old copies (some dating back to 1981 or slightly earlier -- might have a 78 or 79 issue, though I cannot recall exactly when they started, and I started getting and collecting in the late 80s...) I have quite a few issues and am missing maybe the first 12--15 issues and then after issue 203 I stopped getting them. A few other gaps in the middle parts, though only a few here and there. I suppose my collection's overall value ought to go right up. Along with my blue boxed set. (amazing what you can find at garage sales and thrift shops here in Texas...) I also have the red manuals from 78, but no box.

 

Oh well, I just hope that either someone at WotC gets a real clue and starts breathing some new life into the old aspects of the franchise or just dumps the D&D thing onto a group of folks who are willing to do it themselves.

 

Meanwhile, long live Dungeon & Dragon!

 

regards,

dunniteowl

[metadigital]

I have watched it slowly spiral into the marketing scheme of feeding the masses and making it "fresh" and cool for the new folks, instead of making sure the core concepts of D&D remained and that it was kept about the use of imagination and having a small group of folks with their own ideas.

That's a sharp and interesting comment.

 

It's not impossible to do both, though it would need some the readers to choose from between various mutually-exclusive options (like choosing a pantheon, for example, between classical, Norse or Chinese). This entails more work, though. But that is a tremendous opportunity to build a rich source of material for DnD.

 

Still, I'm not sure that the extra effort would show up well on a company's balance sheet ... whereas the primary purpose of marketing is to generate revenue.

[Sand]

I thikn Malhavoc Press, and Monte Cook, should take over Dungeons and Dragons and the d20 System in general.

[dunniteowl]

I have watched it slowly spiral into the marketing scheme of feeding the masses and making it "fresh" and cool for the new folks, instead of making sure the core concepts of D&D remained and that it was kept about the use of imagination and having a small group of folks with their own ideas.

That's a sharp and interesting comment.

 

It's not impossible to do both, though it would need some the readers to choose from between various mutually-exclusive options (like choosing a pantheon, for example, between classical, Norse or Chinese). This entails more work, though. But that is a tremendous opportunity to build a rich source of material for DnD.

 

Still, I'm not sure that the extra effort would show up well on a company's balance sheet ... whereas the primary purpose of marketing is to generate revenue.

 

 

This also makes an incisive point under the "realpolitk" of publishing in general. I might offer an insight to how I see it when it comes to this particular venue:

 

Dragon and Dungeon Magazines were geared for the 'dyed-in-the-wool' (A)D&D fan. One side primarily for gamers and the other side primarily for Module Makers and DMs. Noting that they were not mutually exclusive. Still, no-one can deny they were a niche market. Actually, those two fan mags make an excellent argument for Online Publishing. Much cheaper and perhaps much more available to the masses. Generate revenue the good old fashioned way through the subscription process and advertising on the site. Never happened.

 

With the acquisition of the D&D franchise and rights of TSR by WotC, opportunity that abounded was not only missed, it was thrown overboard as useless flotsam and jetsam.

 

WotC ignored everything but the Forgotten Realms it seems. No more Spelljammer, DarkSun, RavenLoft, Krynn, Greyhawk (happily seeming to make something of a comeback) or even Boot Hil and the Spy one (can't recall the exact name, might have been Secret Agent? (help me out folks with longer memories!))

 

All this stuff could have been kept and recycled in the same way the FR material has been. Updates, fan fiction, the Ecology of... series, PrCs, Skills, Races and Classes could have gone forward. Pantheons and Cults could have gotten more attention. A little scholarly attention to the things that make for a good culture, milieu, religion, political faction, etc. All of this could have been done and spun right into any and or all of the different milieux to the good of the game as well as to the profit to the balance sheets. Alas, no.

 

If you go to the WotC site and look at their home page news sections, the vast majority of their information is related to Pokemon, Magic the Gathering, many other CCGs and CCG related franchises. D&D is but a blip on the radar screen to them and so they chose a single milieu and focussed all their attention on it for the last 10 years. To the detriment of many a fan of other worlds, though still fans of D&D.

 

This was that slow spiral. That slow spiral downward could have been a gentle swelling upward, but, like many with a corporate mentality (and I am not saying this is a bad thing, necessarily) focus on a core aspect and merchantability for less cost became the primary driver of profit, as opposed to innovation, quality and stature amongst the rest of the gaming/RPG market. As I indicated. Flotsam and Jetsom willingly, perhaps too willingly, tossed over the side as a method for quick turnaround to profitability of a franchise that really started RPGs altogether.

 

So, it's a sad thing to see the magazines go, however, it was inevitable considering the mindset of those who now captain the ship. Perhaps someday those things will return and get a much required refurbishing. I hope so.

 

regards,

dunniteowl

[metadigital]

Analogous to the current parlous state of the Hollywood film industry: the safe content creation source (read: sequels of bit hits to create reliably bankable franchise assets, with predictable returns on investments) that it now has become.

 

There is a better way; creativity does actually create new, novel content ... but it's risky and requires someone with vision and the confidence (of the backers) to allow for some failures.

[J.E. Sawyer]

WotC ignored everything but the Forgotten Realms it seems. No more Spelljammer, DarkSun, RavenLoft, Krynn, Greyhawk (happily seeming to make something of a comeback) or even Boot Hil and the Spy one (can't recall the exact name, might have been Secret Agent? (help me out folks with longer memories!))

Top Secret/S.I.

 

I was present at an RPGA event where Roger Moore (Dragon Mag editor) and Sean Connery (some random dude) played in a round of Top Secret/S.I. together.

 

Also, Polyhedron ran a lot of single issues dedicated to the "dead" settings like Dark Sun and Spelljammer. I particularly liked the Spelljammer one, as it finally had some good art (I like Jim Holloway's work in a goofy setting like Paranoia, just not in Spelljammer). They also have had a few random products associated with new/old settings, like the recent Ravenloft adventure hardcover.

[Musopticon?]

Man, I so wanted to be part of Spelljammer game even once. The setting had so much potential.

[Gromnir]

dragon magazine were almost necessary way back in mid seventies. the original white box rules were less than complete and more than a little broken.... and this were pre-internet. at conventions n' such, there began to evolve a kinda accepted house rules standard, but most players were unaware o' these changes. dragon mag were a nifty resource for offering rules updates and changes... also provided new content backs when most supplemental material were in form of relative small game modules.

 

1st edition ad&d changed things a bit by codifying most o' the house rules... but as those rules were result o' an organic trial and error process spanning some number o' years o' tourney play, the new and improved rules were still 'nuff of a mess that dragon continued to be a useful resource. for a LONG time the only hardcover books were monster manual, phb, dmg, deities and demigods. eventually we gets a bunch o' others likes unearthed arcana and fiend folio and oriental adventures, but compared to rate we see today, with a new hardcover book coming out seemingly every month or so...

 

*shrug*

 

errata and rules changes, the stuff that were maybe the most useful aspect o' old dragon (though not its most popular application) can be handled more easily and cheaply via the internet. new monsters, classes, gods, spells and magic 1007... the stuff that people really want more of? why use magazine subscription when you can get persons to buy 4-5 hardcover books instead?

 

all rules in d&d is optional... but the stuff that were in dragon were more optional than most, and THAT might have been its greatest strength. is there anybody who used everything from dragon magazine and incorporated into their d&d rules? might be a couple weirdos who did, but we never met 'em. people viewed a dragon magazine likes a buffet, picking and choosing only what appealed to their personal gaming palette. sadly the same cannot be said of the vast and steamy pile o' crap that is the supplements for d20 d&d. each new book that is released is accepted as part o' d&d canon, and the sneaky wotc design guys makes sure that these tomes is increasingly interdependent. you not wanna use prestige classes from the Uber Wizard supplement? tough, 'cause every adventure and campaign setting book is gonna use at least some of the spells, feats, classes from that book. furthermore, is simply impossible to balance all this new Official material. you honestly thinks that wotc guys balance all new material with all old material in attempt to avoid possible breakage and balance issues? cannot be done, even if they wished to do so. is too big. so much for making d20 d&d more streamlined and balanced, eh? more is not always better.

 

...

 

am understanding economics, and we ain't ignorant nuff to hope for a return to the good old days... which weren't really better btw.

 

oh, and while we hates to admit it, we were kinda impressed with the recent ravenloft hardcover offering that josh mentions.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[steelfiredragon]

the new complete books wouldnt be so bad, if they would get some actual outside of wotc players to playtest it to see if its not trash first.

they are going down hill fast past complete mage and that one is debatable my most.

 

but still.... what about dungeon????

[chris421]

heh.... I think JE's collection scares the lady's away.

 

You know, in my early 20's I thought the same. One day I up and pawned all my childhood (mint condition) 1st edition D&D and AD&D books, box sets, magazines and modules to a hobby shop for next to nothing. Huge mistake. It was all really great stuff! And eventually would've been really valuable stuff. Just what do you think your PDF files will auction for in 50 years? My guess--not a damn thing. Will they even be readable, with shifting formats & dependencies on file converters?

 

PDFs are good for lightweight portability and immediate searchable access at the gaming table. Now in my 30's, I'm married, have a house, and take great joy in rebuilding my physical collection. I have over 130 hardcovers--literally everything 3.5, some late 3.0, all the Salvatore series, and some Dragonlance.

 

WotC is either hurting badly financially and/or is extremely shortsighted to abandon such a cherished institution (the magazines). Print is dead. But D&D isn't your local newspaper or your college textbook. The physical media to a certain degree is the hobby. How can I sit down and read about medieval mayhem while three popups flash by telling me I have new unsolicited email, I'm not running the latest XYZ, or my book's battery is dying. There's something to be said for an utter lack of technology.

[Musopticon?]

One of the major boni of physichal readables is that you can later find edible breadcrumbs between the pages.

 

That alone is a reason enough to not digitize everything. Also, you can't very well fall asleep with a laptop on your head. Tried and true, your noggin is the best bookmark ever. Unless you drool.

Edited July 10, 2007 by Musopticon?

[steelfiredragon]

oh they must be hurting, as all the monster manuals past mm3 are all off their minatures.

 

not a good idea, as the monster in mm 4 and mm5 that are more or less original they could of stuck together for mm4 instead of entries from a mini.

 

 

as for dragonlance its still around, not selling to well or so i hear, and that might not be all that accurate.

[taks]

heh.... I think JE's collection scares the lady's away.

a form of birth control i suppose.

 

anyway, though i have not purchased a copy of dragon in probably 20 years, maybe longer, i wouldn't get too upset at this. speaking as someone that gets a lot of trade rags in the mail, i'm to the point now that i'd way rather have an electronic version. i get piles of mags every month and the clutter is getting hard to deal with.

 

taks