Obsidian's third project

[J.E. Sawyer]

Hmm... While I agree with you that the D&D mechanics are not ideal for this sort of thing, I definitely think that lower level characters can still pose a very real challenge when they are used to exploit the player's vulnerabilities Heck, if I recall correctly IWD 2 featured several fights involving the use of low-level enemies such as orcs and goblins behind obstacles and choke points that I thought were quite difficult despite the fact that said enemies died extremely fast when you actually got to them.

The level difference in those cases was 2-4, tops; the orcs and goblins often had several levels of barbarian, fighter, or sorcerer. It wasn't really any different than the typical D&D encounter where the party fights a bunch of guys that are all a few levels lower than the average party member. When we're talking about 8th level PCs against 3rd to 5th level enemies, the enemies have a much better chance of causing grief than 10th level enemies against 20th+ level enemies.

 

There must be a better way to do this than just throwing a bunch of leveled monsters at the player, thus making it seem like level 30 is just level 3, except with bigger numbers.

That's how D&D's math works. I've criticized this in the past, and it applies to all facets of character strength and high-level difficulty. It is what makes jacks-of-all-trades worthless at higher levels and what makes specialists virtually untouchable unless they are sucker punched by the DM. The high-level character has bonuses to checks that place the result outside of a lower-level character's die range. That is, the lower-level or jack-of-all-trades character could not succeed at a contest against the high-level specialist without a natural 20 (or sometimes not even with a natural 20).

 

You can use reasonable tactics and adaptive smartyness on monsters to foil the players, but that only goes so far and for so long. When the PCs get to the upper teen levels, the opposition has to stay relatively close to their level range or they simply won't have the numbers to get the job done. Adaptive smartyness also has to be developed very carefully to prevent the Sucker Punch Syndrome. If ham-fisted, it comes across as artificial exploitation, with the enemies seemingly prescient about every weakness on the PCs or safeguarded against all PC offensive capabilities.

 

As a minor example, the ice troll shamans in Icewind Dale 2 would cast fire warding spells on themselves as soon as the PC caused any fire damage to a member of their team. People flipped about this even though it was 1) reactive and 2) totally sensible for the monsters to do.

[mkreku]

So basically it's the D&D system that's flawed. The difference between levels is too big. I like it more when the system doesn't take me from gutter trash to divine being in ten levels, but rather that I go from skinny malnourished geek to exceptionally athletic soldier genius. Or something.

[Blank]

You mean like when my level 30 Charizard went up against a level 20 Blastoise and got his butt handed to him by the stupid turtle?

 

Do you still play Pokemon?

Who doesn't?

 

Am I right, fellas? I mean, am I right?

[taks]

uh, no. never have, never will. now chinpokomon, that's a different story. just need to get my hands on a copy...

 

taks

[Oerwinde]

"Unlikely when Edwin is 16 levels higher than Elminster."

 

How did Edwin accomplish that? I believe Elminster is level 29ish in 2E. the amx level for a wizard in TOB is mid 30s is it not? Your math seems to be off...

 

I thought it was mid-late 30s was the cap, I dunno, its been years since I played it, I also thought Elminster was like 24-25th level. Which is supposed to be INSANE in 2e.

 

And after looking it up, he's 26th, and the cap is 31st level. So I was a bit off, but 5 levels is still a lot, but likely offset by Elminster's chosen status. Still I think at that point it would be a battle between equals rather than Elminster whupping Edwin.

[Azarkon]

The high-level character has bonuses to checks that place the result outside of a lower-level character's die range. That is, the lower-level or jack-of-all-trades character could not succeed at a contest against the high-level specialist without a natural 20 (or sometimes not even with a natural 20).

 

Yeah that's one thing I noticed about the system. The rolls, DC checks, etc. are at times absolute barriers to what characters can do against foes more powerful than themselves. It seems like a built-in mechanic to enforce level disparity, which kinda sucks. Being that NWN 2 is a D&D game, I guess you have to stick with those limitations. However, you touched on reactive scripting, which I think is a worthwhile pursuit. At lower levels, the players didn't fight fair. At higher levels, I'd expect that enemies shouldn't fight fair, either. Players usually used every trick in the book in terms of potions, buffs, and items before a major battle in order to defeat more powerful foes - the AI should do the same. While a level 20 character might not have much trouble against a normal party of level 10's, he might have trouble against the same party when it's hasted, buffed, and given the correct immunities & resistances via spells and (reasonable) items. (I'm not sure I recall the ice troll shamen complaints; it seems a reasonable thing to do - what were they complaining about, to be exact?)

 

Btw, JE - what's your stance on set battles? One reason I really liked the IWD series was because many of its encounters were hand-crafted to be unique in their setups, as opposed to being just groups of mobs within an area, like most RPG battles. Now, with increased scripting capabilities, the possibilities are even greater for battles that are more involving. For some quick examples of this - the Sydney battle, which seemed very much like what a battle with a high-level mage should be, was I think one of the highlights of the game. It had the triple benefits of challenging the player, being impressive to watch, and demonstrating cunning on the part of developers. This is actually an important point - the design of battles is, I think, often a contest of wills between the player and the developer. I want to be surprised, and I want to be tricked. The first means that the more original and unique the battle is from what RPGs typically offer, the better. The latter means that a battle where I could feel like I discovered a non-obvious strategy is far superior to a battle where I could grasp what I'm supposed to do the moment I engaged in it. It's like watching a movie that makes people think versus a movie that insults people's intelligence - it's not so much a neogiation between the player and the game world as it is between the player and his impression of the people making the game, and where the stakes might be the player's willingness to actually engage the game on a personal, rather than condescending ("it's just another cliche-ridden RPG"), level.

 

Trying to outwit the player should be, I think, a goal in encounter design.

Edited March 17, 2007 by Azarkon

[Dark_Raven]

"Unlikely when Edwin is 16 levels higher than Elminster."

 

How did Edwin accomplish that? I believe Elminster is level 29ish in 2E. the amx level for a wizard in TOB is mid 30s is it not? Your math seems to be off...

Correct Elminster is level 29. When you first meet Edwin in BG2, his level isn't that high at all.

[Hurlshort]

Which is why I don't want epic levels..

 

DnD loses it's charm after about 10 - 12 th level. Time to start a new campaign.

 

Totally agreed. I way prefer low level adventures and mods for any D&D system. I also prefer way less magic. By the end of most D&D games, I'm drowning in magic crud. I understand having a magical weapon, but I don't need my toenail clippers to have a +5.

[Atreides]

Btw hold on a sec. How many projects does Obsidian have running? And we know two are likely to be Alien and a NWN2 expansion.

[kirottu]

Btw hold on a sec. How many projects does Obsidian have running? And we know two are likely to be Alien and a NWN2 expansion.

 

Mr. Feargus said early on that Obsidian will be three project company. So, Alien rpg(Project Connectiut?) and Project Georgia with Sega and NWN2 expansion with Atari.

 

Project New Jersey was apparently cancelled or put on hold.

[Sand]

Which is why I don't want epic levels..

 

DnD loses it's charm after about 10 - 12 th level. Time to start a new campaign.

 

Totally agreed. I way prefer low level adventures and mods for any D&D system. I also prefer way less magic. By the end of most D&D games, I'm drowning in magic crud. I understand having a magical weapon, but I don't need my toenail clippers to have a +5.

 

In one of my campaigns a Spoon of Disintergration was used. Very useful when tunnelling. Not very useful for breakfast.

[Oerwinde]

"Unlikely when Edwin is 16 levels higher than Elminster."

 

How did Edwin accomplish that? I believe Elminster is level 29ish in 2E. the amx level for a wizard in TOB is mid 30s is it not? Your math seems to be off...

Correct Elminster is level 29. When you first meet Edwin in BG2, his level isn't that high at all.

In 2e Elminster is level 26, Edwin at the end of ToB was 31 in my game. It had been a while since I played, al I remembered was people saying the cap was level 40. Hence my crappy math. 5 levels is still quite a bit though.

[Guard Dog]

Project New Jersey was apparently cancelled or put on hold.

Well, if it was cancelled why not put us all out of our misery and tell us what it was!

[Diamond]

Project New Jersey was apparently cancelled or put on hold.

Well, if it was cancelled why not put us all out of our misery and tell us what it was!

They may have just put the project on hold.

They may be under NDA.

Or both.

[taks]

i've read that elminster's _caster_ level is anywhere from 27-29 in second edition, but in 3E he has levels in other classes (for a total of 35-36, depending upon where you read) plus the chosen status which gives him powers as well. he did do a "lay mythal" spell at one point, which requires level 41 casting apparently. of course, i suppose the idea of a 35th level edwin is really the preposterous part of it all. either way, elminster is immortal (for all intents) and possesses some god-like abilities. he'd whack any mere mortal even of higher level.

 

taks

[Azarkon]

Elminster is Ed Greenwood's alter ego. Of course he'd be godlike

[roshan]

Isnt the Aliens game project New Jersey?

[Morgoth]

Isnt the Aliens game project New Jersey?

No. Alien = Project Connecticut

 

PNJ = MYSTARY! (or just canceled).

[Dark_Raven]

PNJ = Mystery meat.