Father murders child over Xbox

[Gorgon]

You don't use single cases to argue for or against the death penalty. It's about the bigger picture, and the bigger picture is that it's morally reprehensible.

 

It's not so hard to find some Hanibal Lector that everyone thinks deserves to die, but they are not very representative of how and to whom the death penalty is actually applied.

Edited December 17, 2006 by Gorgon

[Pidesco]

Because some people will kill there own children because they thought they broke a $600 toy, and place Money and Possessions in higher esteem and value than human life.

 

So you 're saying that because one person, a few days ago did a really bastardly thing people will always be fundamentally evil?

 

That makes no sense.

[Sand]

That is just one example, but yes.

[Weiser_Cain]

Nonsense

[Mortis Nai]

I never once mentioned Evil, I do not believe in Evil.

 

Evil is a religious concept, I believe In Good and Bad, Right and Wrong, and I have yet to ever see anything in the study of human history that dictates that we will ever be free of from Bad people that will victimize good people.

Edited December 17, 2006 by Mortis Nai

[Pidesco]

I never once mentioned Evil, I do not believe in Evil.

 

Evil is a religious concept, I believe In Good and Bad, Right and Wrong, and I have yet to ever see anything in the study of human history that dictates that we will ever be free of from Bad people that will victimize good people.

 

 

 

You don't believe in Evil but you believe in Good and Bad, and Right and Wrong? I'm going to wait for to realize the idiocy of what you just said.

[Sand]

Take a look at human history, Weiser. We have been killing each other over for silly things and we still are killing each other over crap that is ultimately meaningless. We are a self destructive and loathsome race with very little redeeming qualities.

 

We discriminate against those who we deem "different." We kill at the slightest provocation, using excuses to justify our actions. We seek personal gain over the welfare of our brethren. We are destructive to the environment we live in.

 

As a whole, humanity sucks.

[Mortis Nai]

You don't believe in Evil but you believe in Good and Bad, and Right and Wrong? I'm going to wait for to realize the idiocy of what you just said.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Read some Philosiphy sometime, you may just be surprised.

 

Edit: Had the wrong link.

Edited December 17, 2006 by Mortis Nai

[Pidesco]

I own and have read Beyond Good And Evil, thank you.

[Mortis Nai]

Then if you have read both beyond Good and Evil, and the Genealogy of Morals you should understand where I am coming from when I say "I do not believe in Good and Evil, I believe in Good and Bad, Right and Wrong."

[ramza]

By the way, if a guy killed your daughter you feel you should have the right to dispose of him as you see fit, right? Now imagine that specific guy had a family of his own, doesn't his family, by your logic, also have right to kill you after you murder him?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

One is an unlawful act against an innocent, one is a Lawful act against a Criminal.

 

We as a Civilized Society have rules and laws that dictate our response and course of action when someone violates those laws.

 

Applying your Circular Logic, when our troops come back from war we should place them in prison for Murder or being accomplices to Murder... the real world simply does not work like that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So you believe that mankind cannot change and that we are all fundamentally rat bastards who can never look beyond their own noses?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yep, that sums it up in a nutshell.

 

While I know that there are some good people in the world that can rise above it, there will always be those whom drag humanity down once more, just like crabs in a bucket.

 

---------------

 

I believe that is our nature. If you are a creationist then you believe we were made in God's image but fell. Yes we did, hard and far. If you are an evolutionist then we are animals descended from animals and how could you expect any better from us? But those of us who are able to move beyond our base instincts deserve to be protected from the ones who don't. I'll agree the death penalty is not effective as soon as Ted Bundy kills another college girl, Tim McVeigh blows up another building, etc.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

My oh my! I cant believe what I am reading here! You really disappoint me guys...

you should know that nothing is a fatality in this world... we can change things if we want to...

 

1) If a guy killed a person that was dear to me, I would certainly NOT kill him. That would make me a murderer too... I would just do my best so that he gets the maximum jail sentence in order to retribute him... The sadness will be there but you have to think about the consequences of your actions. You may kill a father, a brother, a husband, no matter if he is a bastard... you have to take into consideration if the person that was dear to me would want me to kill her murderer (and thus ruining my life for a petty vengeance), etc etc etc... We cannot kill someone else just for the purpose of revenge or else we are going back to the primitive societies... We have the state to keep things organised and to prevent such things from happening. The state's justice will have the mission of retributing the murderer in order to satisfy the victim and keep social order... Thats how things work... Therefore, killing the murderer of your wife is still an unlawful act... Then, we have to consider whether the state has the power to kill someone... That is more a policy question but I believe that any country that promotes the ideals of democracy and of human rights should respect the most basic right which is the right to live. We are a modern civilisation and should learn from our past... death penalty leads nowhere.

 

2) You say that it is part of human nature to be violent and to kill... still, if we proclaim ourselves to be civilised, we should act as such... murder cannot be accepted in a civilised society be it lawful or unlawful (as I have already said). If you claim to be civilised, then show it! Someone said that people will keep being violent as long as they dont have enough food, a shelter, etc. Then why are you guys "promoting" a form of violence? You have everything a guy living in third world country could wish for. Should't you show the good example and show mercy? Bloodshed leads to more bloodshed, vengeance to more vengeance. If people like us, who live comfortably, behave like animals (I would say worse than animals, because animals are not vengeful), how do you expec t things to become better? Souldn't we be looking for alternate solutions instead on focusing on the most brutal solution? Contrary to those people living in poor countries, we have education and such... we should be above the basic human instincts...

 

3) No matter how you call it, death penalty is MURDER. You cannot counter that fact no matter what you say. You take the life of another person! game over!

 

 

If all americans think as you do people, then I pity your country... Goodnight fellas.

[Pidesco]

Then if you have read both beyond Good and Evil, and the Genealogy of Morals you should understand where I am coming from when I say "I do not believe in Good and Evil, I believe in Good and Bad, Right and Wrong."

 

No, I don't. First you say that you don't believe in absolute morality, and then you say you do. I don't get it.

[Mortis Nai]

If all americans think as you do people, then I pity your country... Goodnight fellas.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wow... just wow... prejudiced much?

 

An entire speech on taking the Moral high ground, ending it with a National Slur and Insult, well done, that truly shows your enlightenment.

[Mortis Nai]

I don't. First you say that you don't believe in absolute morality, and then you say you do. I don't get it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I do not believe in Religious Morality and its Concept of Evil, but I believe in Human Morality, how is that difficult to understand?

 

I do not believe an Omnipotent Figure and some form of eternal punishment needs to hold sway on if I should be kind to someone, nor do I believe that people do bad things because "The Devil" or any other Religious Boogie Man makes them do it, I believe people make there own choices and are accountable for there own actions.

 

It all depends upon your definition of Evil.

 

I however, am done with this discussion for now, I have been keeping tabs and going back and forth for 6 hours now, while its been interesting I have other things to do.

 

Have fun everyone.

Edited December 18, 2006 by Mortis Nai

[thepixiesrock]

Because some people will kill there own children because they thought they broke a $600 toy, and place Money and Possessions in higher esteem and value than human life.

 

In order for that to be true he would have had to have purposely killed his child.

[LoneWolf16]

Pixiestick presents a good point. Accidents, however grave and terrible, are also part of human nature.

 

A lot of assumptions have been made. Think for a second of the things you've done in the heat of the moment and came to regret once realization of your actions hit.

 

I'm usually in the "What? He murdered a baby!? String him up by his internal organs!" crowd, but lately I've been wavering from it. There are simply too many variables and too many elements of humanity that one must take into account to determine true intent.

 

I've heard plenty of parents admit that, at one time or another, they felt they were perfectly capable of taking their child's life. Granted, they didn't take that extra step, but an obvious degree of control was exerted to avoid doing so....

 

However, if he was thinking "That's it, I'm killing the baby." Then **** him, let him swing. Society has enough problems without that kind of disease writhing within it.

[GreasyDogMeat]

Most of us have been around an annoying child, family or not, that may have rubbed you the wrong way or wrecked one of your precious things.

 

Normal people... spank their kids, make them take a time out, ground them. They don't beat their 17 month old to death.

 

If this were a case where after beating his child, it suddenly dawned on him, what he did, 'Oh my god! what have I done!' I think the death penalty may not be necessary, but some SERIOUS fricken' help/psychatry/whatever is needed. Kids break things... it is just a fact of life. Ever seen a nature show with a lioness laying around while 3 cubs use her as a jungle gym? Yet you usually don't see the queen of the jungle making a snack out of that cub gnawing on her ear.

 

I hate the news lately... nothing but sick and twisted parents. Babies in microwaves, trash bags in back yards, being sold off.

 

Either society has been taking a foul turn for the worse lately, or this stuff has alwasy been happening and the news companies, like the bottom dwelling parasites they are, are feeding off these stories with more regularity because they don't have anything of actual substance to report on.

 

Here it is, a beautiful sunday afternoon and I'm all depressed now. :'(

[Krookie]

I wonder what he would have done had the baby like, broke his $2000 plasma screen.

[Wistrik]

I'm sure this will get blamed on video games, as usual.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The media always misses the point. It's the player, not the game. Just as guns don't kill people but the idiots wielding them do.

 

Some people can't control themselves while playing. Look on YouTube for angry gamer videos and you'll see some good examples. No doubt this guy was in a similar rage when his daughter yanked the cord, and proceeded to pummel her without thought for interrupting his most important game, especially if he was in the heat of battle at the time.

 

This sort of thing never just happens. There's always a pattern of behavior that can go back to a person's infancy. Of course, nobody pays any attention until someone dies.

[ramza]

If all americans think as you do people, then I pity your country... Goodnight fellas.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wow... just wow... prejudiced much?

 

An entire speech on taking the Moral high ground, ending it with a National Slur and Insult, well done, that truly shows your enlightenment.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If you cant differ teasing from prejudice, then I pity ya as well... (I was expecting that kind of reaction, thanks for giving me satisfaction, pal)

[alanschu]

I would change my stance on the death penalty if we could reform our prisons. If all murder convicts were kept in total isolation, 8X6 cells with no windows 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year with no TV, no books, no human interaction of ANY kind (their meals will be slid through a slot in the door) for every day until they die of natural causes, then I will go along with abolishing the death penalty.

 

In the US, prisoners get cable TV in their cells for free. Free use of a library (with tons of legal materials). A free college education if they choose, It's B.S. If it were up to me, if you have a 5 year sentance you would spend evey minuite of that 5 years in that 8X6 cell with no one to talk to, no liberal psychobable about "reforming" you. I guarantee you one thing, no one who served time will want to go back.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Unfortunately, that's not much of a guarantee. If the death penalty is not a deterrent, I doubt hanging out in a black 8x6 cell is going to help either. What I wouldn't be surprised with though, is how exceptionally harmful it would be to throw someone into complete isolation for 5 years. If you're going to do that, you might as well just keep him in prison. If someone wasn't already disconnected with reality and society, after that they might as well be.

 

The wonderful media (which already is excessively sensationalist, and would depict murders and rapes as being the most common type of crime committed) is exceptionally quick to point out repeat offenders for crimes. So much so, that it overrepresents it and makes people think that once a criminal, always a criminal. Rehabilitation programs do work. It's just that the media doesn't find it particularly news worthy if a criminal gets out of prison and never commits another crime and integrates himself perfectly into society.

 

Also, I think when it comes to prison sentences, people completely underrate freedom. They hear about how they have access to a library, get meals, and so on, and get all upset. If you don't think it's all that bad, then why don't you just go commit a crime and go down easy street? I like my freedom. I like not having to adhere to a particular schedule that someone else sets up for me. If I want to hang out with friends and go down to the mall I can. If I wish to go on a vacation, I can. If I don't like my job and want to go and get a new one, I can. If I don't like the place I live and want to move, I can. Maybe it's just me, but I'd much rather have autonomy in my life, then be told when to eat, when to sleep, and so on (for the record, it's 4 AM right now, because the job I have lets me make my own hours. As long as I work a 35 hour week, the boss is happy).

 

 

However when I reference Capital Punishment I am not speaking of the exact system we have in place at the moment, more rather hearing the verdict and taking "old yella" out the back to a merciful end at the barrel of a shotgun.

 

Here's hoping you're wrongfully found guilty of a capital crime you didn't commit. Would you be content, knowing that it's an acceptable loss? Mere collateral damage?

 

Someone goes on death row they are there for a Life Sentence before they actually face the chair, most people sentences to death die in prison during the long wait and the US actually Kills far less people than you would think. The Number of people that face the Electric Chair is relatively few, even in states such as Texas.

 

That is false. Unless a life sentence can be as short as 6 years, which is how long Timothy McVeigh was in prison prior to his execution.

 

And how much exactly is "relatively few" for people that face the electric chair? There was 24 in Texas in 2006 alone, and 53 in the entire United States. 2 per month in texas, and 1 a week in the entire US. And even then, these numbers are 50% lower than they were 5 years ago.

 

 

 

I rather protect the rights of the victim than the rights of the killer. This man, without thought or real provocation, killed his child. He deserves death.

 

How exactly does killing someone protect the rights of the victim? Personally, I'd rather protect the rights of everyone.

Edited December 18, 2006 by alanschu

[Sand]

How exactly does killing someone protect the rights of the victim?  Personally, I'd rather protect the rights of everyone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It makes sure that the killer doesn't get the chance to make more victims.

[Guard Dog]

How exactly does killing someone protect the rights of the victim?  Personally, I'd rather protect the rights of everyone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It makes sure that the killer doesn't get the chance to make more victims.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree. Tookie Williams will not be killing anymore convienience store employees. Or ochestrating any more attacks on prison guards. Or sending anymore orders to the Crips. Ted Bundy will not kill any more college students. Tim McVeigh will destroy no more buildings.

 

To quote Ron White In America, we have the death penalty. And we USE it. If you come here and kill someone we will kill you back. It's our policy.

[Sand]

Damn straight.

 

I have no sympathy for those who break the law nor any sympathy for murderers.

[Guard Dog]

Unfortunately, that's not much of a guarantee.  If the death penalty is not a deterrent, I doubt hanging out in a black 8x6 cell is going to help either.  What I wouldn't be surprised with though, is how exceptionally harmful it would be to throw someone into complete isolation for 5 years.  If you're going to do that, you might as well just keep him in prison.  If someone wasn't already disconnected with reality and society, after that they might as well be.

 

The wonderful media (which already is excessively sensationalist, and would depict murders and rapes as being the most common type of crime committed) is exceptionally quick to point out repeat offenders for crimes.  So much so, that it overrepresents it and makes people think that once a criminal, always a criminal.  Rehabilitation programs do work.  It's just that the media doesn't find it particularly news worthy if a criminal gets out of prison and never commits another crime and integrates himself perfectly into society.

 

Also, I think when it comes to prison sentences, people completely underrate freedom.  They hear about how they have access to a library, get meals, and so on, and get all upset.  If you don't think it's all that bad, then why don't you just go commit a crime and go down easy street?  I like my freedom.  I like not having to adhere to a particular schedule that someone else sets up for me.  If I want to hang out with friends and go down to the mall I can.  If I wish to go on a vacation, I can.  If I don't like my job and want to go and get a new one, I can.  If I don't like the place I live and want to move, I can.  Maybe it's just me, but I'd much rather have autonomy in my life, then be told when to eat, when to sleep, and so on (for the record, it's 4 AM right now, because the job I have lets me make my own hours.  As long as I work a 35 hour week, the boss is happy).

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The more horrifying prison is, the fewer people we will have in it. Recitivisim will drop if we make or prisons more like the isolation cells at Devil's Island during the turn of the 20th Century. That the repeat offender rate is so high now when we do so much to rehabilitate tells me that rehabilitation is a fools errand anyway. So you make it so terrible and so dehumanizing (which means so much worse than it is now) that no one will repeat for fear of going back.