Does Obsidian intend to make an RPG like FO?

[jaguars4ever]

Which is a shame really, because the camera was flexible enough to offer good isometric style views.

[Sand]

Yeah, I just wished we had more IE control for the party. I really miss it in the newer games.

[Riftworm]

To be honest, I think it's enough to keep the player relatively in the dark about their surroundings.  You can point them in the "best" way to go (which is what Fallout did) and make exploration risky through the use of hazards and a general lack of knowledge about where they are going.  It works out pretty well.  For example, it's possible that someone could stumble out of Vault 13 and click randomly on the map until they found Necropolis, but it's pretty damned improbable.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Right but like in NWN1, you got your mission at home base kinda deal, and if you chose to go on it you did, if not.. you didn't. If you chose to wander and mutilate chickens and farmers you were free to do so and shifte your alignment as a result. , or if you chose to go exploring and ran into trouble that was your own fault. There was that sense of discovery and you could never be sure what lurked beyond. I enjoyed how I was able to discover side quests on my own without being told about them. KotoR II was a bit more free that way, but still all "Obsidian" about plotting useless NPC's for some reason.

 

Just so..Disney..

Edited December 14, 2006 by Riftworm

[alanschu]

KOTOR is also game where you have party members, without any sort of Select All or drag boxes.

 

Rather, both KOTORs were designed so that the primary option was to control one character while your companions ran on autopilot; the other, slghtly less supported option was to pause and control them all with autoqueues. The camera and so forth made it difficult to control everyone in real-time, which was my point. It was exactly the same as NWN1; it wasn't designed to control a large party like you did with IE, it was designed for pause-and-cumbersome-control or letting them autopilot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Unfortunately the action queues didn't work, because the moment you switched characters the AI would overrule your choices.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I remember finding it somewhat inconsistent. Sometimes the AI would override, but other times not.

 

 

The thing is though, is that NWN2 strikes me as not being a whole lot different, so I'm not sure if it should be held to a different standard than KOTOR or NWN1.

 

 

 

Right but like in NWN1, you got your mission at home base kinda deal, and if you chose to go on it you did, if not.. you didn't. If you chose to wander and mutilate chickens and farmers you were free to do so and shifte your alignment as a result. , or if you chose to go exploring and ran into trouble that was your own fault.

 

I don't think the original NWN is really a great example of this. I still found the OC to be rather restrictive. I never really felt like there was much random exploring to do. The Fallouts, or the original Baldur's Gate are much, much better examples.

 

Not that I minded it in NWN, as I typically don't care for random exploring.

Edited December 14, 2006 by alanschu

[Riftworm]

KOTOR is also game where you have party members, without any sort of Select All or drag boxes.

 

Rather, both KOTORs were designed so that the primary option was to control one character while your companions ran on autopilot; the other, slghtly less supported option was to pause and control them all with autoqueues. The camera and so forth made it difficult to control everyone in real-time, which was my point. It was exactly the same as NWN1; it wasn't designed to control a large party like you did with IE, it was designed for pause-and-cumbersome-control or letting them autopilot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Unfortunately the action queues didn't work, because the moment you switched characters the AI would overrule your choices.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I remember finding it somewhat inconsistent. Sometimes the AI would override, but other times not.

 

 

The thing is though, is that NWN2 strikes me as not being a whole lot different, so I'm not sure if it should be held to a different standard than KOTOR or NWN1.

 

 

 

Right but like in NWN1, you got your mission at home base kinda deal, and if you chose to go on it you did, if not.. you didn't. If you chose to wander and mutilate chickens and farmers you were free to do so and shifte your alignment as a result. , or if you chose to go exploring and ran into trouble that was your own fault.

 

I don't think the original NWN is really a great example of this. I still found the OC to be rather restrictive. I never really felt like there was much random exploring to do. The Fallouts, or the original Baldur's Gate are much, much better examples.

 

Not that I minded it in NWN, as I typically don't care for random exploring.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

NWN1 had this, but it also simultaneously allowed for wandering or random killing. If you needed to be taken by the hand and guided along (like NWN2 does exclusively) you could, but you could also stray 20 maps over and into some weird forest as well. That sense of exploration that's missing. It's the "openess" That Josh was talking about. If it doesn't bother you from being guided along, then no need worry about it if it's implemented. NWN1 serviced both types of preferences. I just wish NWN2 was the same in that regard.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Why are you bringing up NWN2 when no one is arguing that it is anything but linear?

[Lare Kikkeli]

Yeah, whats with all the hate

[Tigranes]

Why do you think, Josh?

 

Exploration 'for exploration's sake' is present in many games. If Obsidian in one of its future projects takes a direction which favours exploration, I think we're mostly agreed on what type of exploration it must be; then, what is the best medium to convey that sense? BG1's "world maps" (which are essentially the same as having one big world like Oblivion or Gothic)? BG2's "spot maps"?

 

To that end, I think a relevant question is whether an engine and game style such as the IE/BIS ones or K2/NWN2 could handle a TES/Gothic-like world map style. So on one hand it's a question of can the gameplay prove conducive to such a world, and on the other can the engine produce such areas. Obviously, Aurora/Electron cannot.

 

Tangents upon tangents, I know, but it brings me into another issue; I believe that BIS / Obsidian design methods, perhaps coming about from its pnp roots, or from designing games with little contained areas, are very self-contained about each encounter. You will enter a room, fight some orcs, then go onto fight some other orcs. NWN2 OC had some areas with open doors, and that was a step in a different direction; instead of cleaning out 'one room aftera nother' (and liberally resting in between), you really had a sense of storming, say, Fihelis' house; because enemies were coming at you everywhere and it was a big brawl and melee. I would love to see more of this type of 'interaction' in dungeons; if you are attacked they really DO sound the alarm (instead of pretending to); you can kill the messenger so that help does not arrive (you could do this in Saradush barracks, TOB); scouting and stealth would obviously become extremely important in this case, as opposed to the time-honoured IE/OE tactic of just barging in and throwing a fireball. It could really benefit the Alien RPG, come to think of it - that kind of enemy interaction, so that it's not you coming in on an unsuspecting enemy and delivering individual, self-contained deathblows, but *you* running from *them*, trying to turn off the alarm switches trying to dodge the incoming reinforcements.

 

I think a successful implementation of the exploration concept does require, whether in small areas or a big 'persistent' one, a sort of world map where you can reach a castle in the plains by any route you choose; and that the design concept of designing 'by encounters' is made a littel more flexible and realistic.

[kirottu]

NWN1 had this, but it also simultaneously allowed for wandering or random killing. If you needed to be taken by the hand and guided along  (like NWN2 does exclusively) you could, but you could also stray 20 maps over and into some weird forest as well. That sense of exploration that's missing. It's the "openess" That Josh was talking about. If it doesn't bother you from being guided along, then no need worry about it if it's implemented. NWN1 serviced both types of preferences. I just wish NWN2 was the same in that regard.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Bull****.

 

East, west, north and south always ended in some plot crucial thingie. And when you had done them all you would go to next chapter to repeat what you had just done.

 

You might have a point if you would stop your crappy NWN 1 examples.

[alanschu]

NWN1 had this, but it also simultaneously allowed for wandering or random killing. If you needed to be taken by the hand and guided along (like NWN2 does exclusively) you could, but you could also stray 20 maps over and into some weird forest as well. That sense of exploration that's missing. It's the "openess" That Josh was talking about. If it doesn't bother you from being guided along, then no need worry about it if it's implemented. NWN1 serviced both types of preferences. I just wish NWN2 was the same in that regard.

 

It's been a while since I last played NWN, but I don't remember it being that open of a game. Baldur's Gate takes the cake, followed by probably Fallout (when discussing games with a large variety of maps. Oblivion and Morrowind are also wide open games, but they're more sandbox games with less focus on story IMO). I always remembered there being some stuff on the side, that was still related to either the main quest, or a side quest found near "home base." Baldur's Gate literally had "Hey, what's this area? I think I'll take a look." I never really got that impression from NWN.

Edited December 14, 2006 by alanschu

[Tigranes]

Oh, my...

 

What are you doing with my carefully detailed diversion away from another Rift-Fight?

[alanschu]

It's not really a riftfight (well, Kirottu's post is a bit more aggressive).

 

Just a comment about how open of a game NWN truly was.

[Gorth]

It's not really a riftfight (well, Kirottu's post is a bit more aggressive).

 

Just a comment about how open of a game NWN truly was.

If NWN was an "Open" game, then I guess Pac-Man would qualify too. Your cheese avatar could choose to clear out the dots to the east, west, south or north first (picking up some phat loot along the way). In the end though, it didn't make any difference, you had to clear the entire gaming board. Only choice being which one of four you picked first. None of the four things you had to fetch in each act was optional (Ok, so I died from boredom before completing Act IV so it might have been different from Acts I-III, but at least I tried).

[Tigranes]

Act IV is completely different, a lot more things are on fire.

 

Also you get to stick your sword in some megaboobs.

[metadigital]

Micromanaging could have actually worked in the KotORs if there was a dummy mode like in NWN2.  That way, we might have been able to strategically position them without them instantly running back towards the selected character.  <_<

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can see the whiteboard, at the beginning of the design cycle, with a big "allow puppet mode for party members" after KotOR:TSL.

[Girias_Solo]

It was a sad day when RPG's had to be sold to the 'mainstream' in order to be viable.....Yes indeed. Wonder what year this was....

 

Hopefully some Indy people will make a studio that caters to these needs.

 

They could use yesterdays engines, and mix them with todays Role playing and mechanics.....

 

But unless bigger companies learn how to make decent RPG's, with ok graphics that DO NOT need to be sold to every gamer and his dog, then I am afraid that indies are where its at.

 

Spend some time and get addicted to this if you want to know what ambition is.

http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/

 

Not strictly an RPG, but when you check out what can be done, and learn how to play it, you will agree with me that no AAA title could ever have that much gameplay.

 

Yes, it was a sad day when RPG's had to sell to the 'mainstream' in order to be viable.....

[Sand]

NWN1 had this, but it also simultaneously allowed for wandering or random killing. If you needed to be taken by the hand and guided along  (like NWN2 does exclusively) you could, but you could also stray 20 maps over and into some weird forest as well. That sense of exploration that's missing. It's the "openess" That Josh was talking about. If it doesn't bother you from being guided along, then no need worry about it if it's implemented. NWN1 serviced both types of preferences. I just wish NWN2 was the same in that regard.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The problem here, Riftworm, is that NWN1 and NWN2 are two very different games. NWN1 was a hack and slash Diablo styled game with a very light story to it while NWN2 is a very much a Story Driven game more akin to the KotOR series than the first NWN.

[metadigital]

I believe that BIS / Obsidian design methods, perhaps coming about from its pnp roots, or from designing games with little contained areas, are very self-contained about each encounter. You will enter a room, fight some orcs, then go onto fight some other orcs. NWN2 OC had some areas with open doors, and that was a step in a different direction; instead of cleaning out 'one room aftera nother' (and liberally resting in between), you really had a sense of storming, say, Fihelis' house; because enemies were coming at you everywhere and it was a big brawl and melee. I would love to see more of this type of 'interaction' in dungeons; if you are attacked they really DO sound the alarm (instead of pretending to); you can kill the messenger so that help does not arrive (you could do this in Saradush barracks, TOB); scouting and stealth would obviously become extremely important in this case, as opposed to the time-honoured IE/OE tactic of just barging in and throwing a fireball. It could really benefit the Alien RPG, come to think of it - that kind of enemy interaction, so that it's not you coming in on an unsuspecting enemy and delivering individual, self-contained deathblows, but *you* running from *them*, trying to turn off the alarm switches trying to dodge the incoming reinforcements.

 

I think a successful implementation of the exploration concept does require, whether in small areas or a big 'persistent' one, a sort of world map where you can reach a castle in the plains by any route you choose; and that the design concept of designing 'by encounters' is made a littel more flexible and realistic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd add an observation to this: one very obvious metagaming tip with all the conflict areas (internal "dungeons", like Fihelis' house) is that all the pieces of the "level puzzle" will be in that small area.

 

I guess this is a design decision: smaller puzzles are fed by the local region, otherwise it would be far too easy to lose a vital piece because one didn't explore that outhouse around the back of the castle that only appears according to a map that must be discovered when the PC is travelling through the deepest part of the forest at the conjunctional new moons ... but then again, Ultima did this without too much negative press and some significant appreciation.

[jaguars4ever]

Don't mess with Kiro-San. He has pirate and ninja skills! Yarr...Ha-do-ken!

[Dark_Raven]

NWN1 had this, but it also simultaneously allowed for wandering or random killing. If you needed to be taken by the hand and guided along  (like NWN2 does exclusively) you could, but you could also stray 20 maps over and into some weird forest as well. That sense of exploration that's missing. It's the "openess" That Josh was talking about. If it doesn't bother you from being guided along, then no need worry about it if it's implemented. NWN1 serviced both types of preferences. I just wish NWN2 was the same in that regard.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The problem here, Riftworm, is that NWN1 and NWN2 are two very different games. NWN1 was a hack and slash Diablo styled game with a very light story to it while NWN2 is a very much a Story Driven game more akin to the KotOR series than the first NWN.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree.

[alanschu]

As a final slight aside about Something Awful, I will give their board credit. If someone were to say "FFS I had it with this game I'm out of here" for whatever game, failure to adhere to such statement can result in a ban :D

[Plano Skywalker]

Yeah, I just wished we had more IE control for the party.  I really miss it in the newer games.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think that part of the answer might lie in borrowing something from the 1st person shooter world: SQUAD COMMANDS that you activate with a list of buttons.

 

commands like:

 

Ranged Attack (i.e. everyone who has a ranged attack, use it now)

Fall Back (to the checkpoint)

Rush the Leader

Shield Wall (fighters form a barrier for everyone else)

etc.

 

that really shouldn't be that hard to do computationally and it would certainly add a lot of gameplay enjoyment. it may not be all that is needed but would be something on the cheap side that would add a lot I think.

[Winterwolf]

I think Chris Avellone has been praised so much for PST that his success has gone to his head, and he thinks that everyone will like whatever crap he comes up with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually that`s not so far away from the truth. I`m one of those who would buy anything with Chris Avellone`s name attached to it... even if it would be "The Erotic Adventures of Winnie the Pooh". I`m pretty much like the Guy 1 in the following story.

 

Guy 1: "Hank, you know that I don`t like your silly hentai games, with their wierd japanese humor and all that.

 

Guy 2: "Oh really? But it`s made by Chris Avellone."

 

Guy 1: "Where?!?! What?!?! When!?!?! Why didn`t you tell it in the first place!"

 

Guy 1 storms behind the computer only to witness a scene with a busty scantily-clad vampire chick.

 

Vamp chick: "Know that I devour in silence, for I am naught more but an echo of life."

 

Guy 1: "Yes!! Wow!! So beautiful, so poetical! It`s like he writes for my soul, you know what I

[Diamond]

I think Chris Avellone has been praised so much for PST that his success has gone to his head, and he thinks that everyone will like whatever crap he comes up with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually that`s not so far away from the truth. I`m one of those who would buy anything with Chris Avellone`s name attached to it... even if it would be "The Erotic Adventures of Winnie the Pooh".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think it is that much relevant sales-wise, as the majority of buyers don't even know who Avellone is.

[Xard]

I think Chris Avellone has been praised so much for PST that his success has gone to his head, and he thinks that everyone will like whatever crap he comes up with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

*snip*

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Same thing apparently