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If your country drafts you for a war...


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The big point of contention was that the colonies did not have representation in Parliament. Tax was the match that lit the powder keg but the powder keg was no autonomy or representation in what was becoming an increasing hostile govenmnent in England.

 

I find it ironic that our forefathers threw out the British over a 3% tax rate yet now we vote for politicains that have created a bloated, over reaching govenment that is crippling us with taxes, most of which the Constitution grants it no authority to levy. About time we got out our muskets again and lined up on the Boston Green.

You're contradicting yourself. First you argue that the Revolution was primarily about representation rather than taxes, and then you state that the current American government-- a product of representative democracy-- should be overthrown because of high taxes. If the main reason to overthrow an oppressive government is lack of representation, then modern Americans shouldn't be considering revolt. (And, by and large, they aren't.)

Edited by Enoch
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liberty is antithetical to democracy. you wanna live in a democratic country? fine. democracy is Gromnir giving up his right to do what he wishes if the majority thinks some alternative is best. we gots a representative democracy.

 

the Bill of Rights is our defense against the tyranny of the majority. you wants to make new law that allows people to avoid draft as a matter of conscience? sure, you can do that, but that is purpose of Amendments to the Constitution. if majority doesn't like you using flag as toilet paper to make a point, they can go howl for all the good it will do 'em, 'cause Bill o' Rights allows you to do so.

 

is easy being in favor of govt. paying for infrastucture and eductaion, but not for wars in foreign lands. fine. however, you use vote to get things changed... or you can leave. democracy is opposed to excercise of liberty. you sacrifice liberty for benefit of democracy.

 

we got no contempt for those who feels strong enough 'bout not fighting that they would risk substantial imprisionment, but that is part of the deal... thoreau would understand.

 

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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You're contradicting yourself.  First you argue that the Revolution was primarily about representation rather than taxes, and then you state that the current American government-- a product of representative democracy-- should be overthrown because of high taxes.  If the main reason to overthrow an oppressive government is lack of representation, then modern Americans shouldn't be considering revolt.  (And, by and large, they aren't.)

Jeez, that was intended to be a tounge-in-cheek comment. You guys are taking that too literally! But you are correct. Any heartache with the fiscal discipline (or lack therof) in the current government has nothing to do with the causes of the revolution. Thats why I added a second paragraph so I did not make a connection between two seperate thoughts. Anyway, let me say for the record I do NOT advocate armed insurrection against the US govt. The problem with forums is sarcasm often does not translate well!

Get off my lawn!

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Wow. Some of the replies here have really given new meaning to the saying, "Narcissism is its own reward."

 

Do y'all truly believe that you are entitled to enjoy all "rights" your country can bestow without having any "responsibilities" whatsoever? Seriously? Or am I misunderstanding?

 

Edit: Is your complaint solely about being forced into the military, either because of the danger or because it goes against your personal morals, or do you feel you shouldn't have to perform any service at all for your country beyond paying your taxes? I'm really quite curious about this.

Edited by ~Di
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To be clear, my only complaint is that I'd be forced (the key word) to serve, in the land of the "free". If you're going to advocate or support forced military service, then stop using the word freedom when you talk about it.

 

Were it a major threat to my country, my family, my friends, and all I hold dear, I'd sign up myself and fight to the best of my ability if it came to it.

 

I don't owe my country a damned thing. I owe the people who volunteer my respect. They're obviously made from stronger stuff than myself, otherwise I'd be out in the desert right now rather than attending college.

 

If it were a threat, say WWIII, I'd have to join some facet of the military, not because I'm forced to, but because I'd rather not see everyone I know and love being nuked. :sorcerer:

Edited by LoneWolf16

I had thought that some of nature's journeymen had made men and not made them well, for they imitated humanity so abominably. - Book of Counted Sorrows

 

'Cause I won't know the man that kills me

and I don't know these men I kill

but we all wind up on the same side

'cause ain't none of us doin' god's will.

- Everlast

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Drafting = Loss of freedom.

I had thought that some of nature's journeymen had made men and not made them well, for they imitated humanity so abominably. - Book of Counted Sorrows

 

'Cause I won't know the man that kills me

and I don't know these men I kill

but we all wind up on the same side

'cause ain't none of us doin' god's will.

- Everlast

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It's a distinct, and massive loss of personal freedom.

 

It's a straw-drawing event, sure, for an entire age group, but it is still stripping those people of that base freedom.

I had thought that some of nature's journeymen had made men and not made them well, for they imitated humanity so abominably. - Book of Counted Sorrows

 

'Cause I won't know the man that kills me

and I don't know these men I kill

but we all wind up on the same side

'cause ain't none of us doin' god's will.

- Everlast

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Drafting = Loss of freedom.

 

True. However, freedom is not absolute, is it? Not in the USA, not in Europe, not anywhere on the planet! You are not free to say or do anything which infringes upon the rights of others. Nor are you free to indulge yourself in any activity the government will not allow, even if said activity affects nobody but yourself... i.e., you cannot use drugs the government has banned, you cannot prostitute yourself or secure a prostitute, you cannot even eat trans-fat in NYC!!

 

So my question still comes down to a simple one: With our citizenship comes certain rights; does it also come with responsibilities? If so, what responsibilities do we have toward the country and the society in which we live?

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I had thought that some of nature's journeymen had made men and not made them well, for they imitated humanity so abominably. - Book of Counted Sorrows

 

'Cause I won't know the man that kills me

and I don't know these men I kill

but we all wind up on the same side

'cause ain't none of us doin' god's will.

- Everlast

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It's a distinct, and massive loss of personal freedom.

 

It's a straw-drawing event, sure, for an entire age group, but it is still stripping those people of that base freedom.

 

As bad as it is, if it is ever enacted it IS legal. Would you go to jail, Canada, or the the service? The shortest route is to just go in, do your two and get it over with. I think the jail term is longer and I don't believe Canada will welcome dodgers again. Which would any of you guys take?

Get off my lawn!

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Then stop with the "land of the free", "we're defending freedom", "free free freeeeeeee", "free bird!" crap. We all know we're not free, granted, much more so than most other countries on the face of the Earth, but still not free in the truest sense of the word. Sound like I'm reaching?...

 

Er... yes, it does. :lol:

 

Good, I am. Was hoping it'd distract enough from the fact that I'm not entirely clear on how to answer that question beyond what I've already given. ...

 

Ahhh, in that case, nice move!

 

Taxes have been mentioned, and that whole fighting when the enemy is at your doorstep scenario, I'm inclined to agree with both as being responsibilities. My life, and yours, are not tools for offensive forays onto foreign soil, unless our loved ones, and to a slightly lesser extent, the country, are threatened.

 

Okay, I think I understand.

Edited by ~Di
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Okay, I think I understand.  You are saying that yes, you do believe citizens have certain responsibilities to their country and their society, but the most onerous of those responsibilities, "the draft", should only be implemented under the most dire threat to home, hearth, and our very way of life.

More or less. :lol:

 

Ok, actually more.

 

If that is what you are saying, we are in total agreement. :lol:  Now wasn't that easy?

Of course not, this is an internet forum, and I'm a teenager. Those two things do not an easy discussion make. Glad we could come to an agreement though. ^_^

I had thought that some of nature's journeymen had made men and not made them well, for they imitated humanity so abominably. - Book of Counted Sorrows

 

'Cause I won't know the man that kills me

and I don't know these men I kill

but we all wind up on the same side

'cause ain't none of us doin' god's will.

- Everlast

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Wow.  Some of the replies here have really given new meaning to the saying, "Narcissism is its own reward."

 

Do y'all truly believe that you are entitled to enjoy all "rights" your country can bestow without having any "responsibilities" whatsoever?  Seriously?  Or am I misunderstanding?

 

Edit:  Is your complaint solely about being forced into the military, either because of the danger or because it goes against your personal morals, or do you feel you shouldn't have to perform any service at all for your country beyond paying your taxes?  I'm really quite curious about this.

 

No, I'm not saying I have no responsibilities, not by a long stretch. I'm not even saying that the country doesn't have a right to call on me to fight for it.

 

I, like every other member of my country and like every member of *your* country, pays for the right to live in it every single day they're alive.

 

If the existence of my country was at stake, then I would fight. It's where all the people who are important to me live. Of course I'd defend it. I'm not going to support some self-important fool's foray into another country, though. Why should I?

 

What are your definitions of rights and responsibilities in this case? So I have the right to free speech and all the rest of it so I have to go and fight in some war I disagree with? Do my rights given to me by my country also not include the right to peaceful protest? That is, in effect, what I'd be doing.

 

Edited for garble.

 

Further edit: Taxes. All the "services" my country provides are paid for by taxes gathered from the population. I pay my taxes and I use those services. What else do I owe it and why? Genuinely curious.

Edited by Kroney

Dirty deeds done cheap.

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No, I'm not saying I have no responsibilities, not by a long stretch. I'm not even saying that the country doesn't have a right to call on me to fight for it.

 

I, like every other member of my country and like every member of *your* country, pays for the right to live in it every single day they're alive.

 

If the existence of my country was at stake, then I would fight. It's where all the people who are important to me live. Of course I'd defend it. I'm not going to support some self-important fool's foray into another country, though. Why should I?

 

What are your definitions of rights and responsibilities in this case? So I have the right to free speech and all the rest of it so I have to go and fight in some war I disagree with? Do my rights given to me by my country also not include the right to peaceful protest? That is, in effect, what I'd be doing.

 

Edited for garble.

 

Further edit: Taxes. All the "services" my country provides are paid for by taxes gathered from the population. I pay my taxes and I use those services. What else do I owe it and why? Genuinely curious.

 

I thought my personal beliefs on the matter of rights versus responsibilities was clarified in my later posts with LoneWolf 16. I am not in favor of a draft, unless the very survival of the nation (or an allied nation, or even the world as we know it!) is at stake. However, the original question was IF the draft was reinstated and IF I was called to serve in a war I dispised and disagreed with, like Iraq, would I serve. I said yes, I would. Because, in a nutshell, I believe that I have a responsibility to serve if called upon rather than simply run to a neighboring country while my friends and family fight in my place. I could go to jail rather than serve, of course, but most folks here did not seem to consider that as a viable option for themselves personally! :aiee:

 

To answer your question, I believe one has considerable responsibility to one's society... a nation is an extention of community... to support that nation financially (taxes), with time and effort, such as community service, feeding the hungry, joining in groups to clean up highways, search and rescue duty when required, volunteer firefighter, contributing to charities, helping those less fortunate, all manner of ways to participate in and serve one's community... and by participating in the process of running the community, such as participating in elections by understanding the issues and voting, participating in local government to the extend possible, even if that's only attending zoning and PTA meetings... and generally being a productive member of society contributing to rather than draining its resources. I enjoy the fruits of others' service in these and other ways; I enjoy the fruits of a safe, prosperous lifestyle. It's my responsibility as a citizen to obey the laws of the land, even the laws I do not agree with, although it's also my right as a citizen to work toward changing those laws with my vote, or political participation. I know people who simply take all the good stuff of living in a free society, ignore the laws they don't like, never bother to vote or attend a school board meeting or otherwise carry out the responsibility of being a citizen in a democratic society, then they bitch and moan about the way the country is run. They want their "rights" as a citizen; they can't be bothered with their "responsibilities" as a citizen. Well, it doesn't work that way in my mind.

 

In my mind countries are like relatives. Sometimes we appreciate them, sometimes they annoy the snot out of us, but they will always be our relatives. For example, I can lobby Aunt Ellen to use deodorant... please!... and beg Uncle Ned not to drink so much, but basically Aunt Ellen is a good soul who bakes me cookies and Uncle Ned can be counted on to drive me to the doctor when everyone else is busy, so I try to change negatives that I can change and accept the negatives that I can't because I care about them. They are my family. I have a responsibility to them, warts and all.

 

I feel the same about my country. So when people say "I don't owe my country anything", I can't really relate to that. This is why I ask the question.

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In my mind countries are like relatives. Sometimes we appreciate them, sometimes they annoy the snot out of us, but they will always be our relatives. For example, I can lobby Aunt Ellen to use deodorant... please!... and beg Uncle Ned not to drink so much, but basically Aunt Ellen is a good soul who bakes me cookies and Uncle Ned can be counted on to drive me to the doctor when everyone else is busy, so I try to change negatives that I can change and accept the negatives that I can't because I care about them. They are my family. I have a responsibility to them, warts and all.

 

That might have been true, once upon a time - back when people actually lived and died by virtue of their nation. Today, with globalization breaking down barriers of nationality, it's become increasingly obvious to me, personally, that what country you're from ultimately doesn't matter. Fluidity is the name of the game - more and more people today are multinational, hold several visas/citizenships, and go where the work and the money are. Their choice of a nation, therefore, has nothing to do with a sense of family or belonging, but with personal pursuits and market movements.

 

In such an environment, it's hard to relate to the mentality that you owe your country something, or that your country is like your relative. It's much easier to think - and rightfully so - that your priviledges, if you have them, are the result of personal achievements and not citizenship. Many people, in fact, adopt the opinion that they're in a country because the country needs them. And you're really in no position to say that they're wrong - after all, the US actively attempts to recruit the best and brightest in the world and many of the people in question are often sitting on offers from across the globe.

 

Of course, whether such an environment exists for you depends on your state of residence. Living in California or New York is very different than living in the heart of Bible country. In some areas of the US I have no doubt that your point of view is still very much alive and prominent - the South, for example, is much more patriotic and duty-minded than the coastal cities. But at the same time, there is no right and wrong here. It's true that the US is a better place to live in than many other places in the world, but it's equally true that the US - unlike many European nations - does not exactly look after your welfare. A bum living on the streets of downtown LA would probably not respond very well to your ideas toward duty, and if you can't explain, on the basis of citizenship alone, why he's living in abject poverty while others are filthy rich, then the idea that every citizens owes his or her "prosperous" life style to the nation becomes particularly unconvincing.

Edited by Azarkon

There are doors

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Okay, I think I understand.  You are saying that yes, you do believe citizens have certain responsibilities to their country and their society, but the most onerous of those responsibilities, "the draft", should only be implemented under the most dire threat to home, hearth, and our very way of life.

More or less. :)

 

Ok, actually more.

 

If that is what you are saying, we are in total agreement. :devil:  Now wasn't that easy?

Of course not, this is an internet forum, and I'm a teenager. Those two things do not an easy discussion make. Glad we could come to an agreement though. ^_^

 

Seriously get a room... or lets all get a room. :)

 

FYI my stance on this is the same as yours, although we do have compulsory military service here for males, but not everyone gets forced in though, and they won't get send off to international missions unless they want to sign up for it.

Edited by Lucius

DENMARK!

 

It appears that I have not yet found a sig to replace the one about me not being banned... interesting.

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