Romances in NWN 2 and RPGs in general

[Wistrik]

I like the concept of romance in CRPGs, but not necessarily the implementation thus far.

 

Given that the games tend toward active exploration and quest solving, there is little room for deep romantic discussions, therefore I think it's more realistic to have friendships with a romantic edge to them, much the way long lasting relationships tend to start. Without the friendship, the romance won't last very long anyway.

 

There's also the problem of a romance writer trying to write for a general audience. Some people have really immature ideas of what romance is, and others are much more mature about it. Then there are the thousands of shades of morals, or lack thereof, that players have.

 

I've experienced hints of romance, or flings if you will, in the singleplayer Ultima games. I've experienced all the default romances, and a few fan-made romances, in BG2. And I've experienced the somewhat friendlier henchman romances in NWN. Of the bunch, I'd say Naryssa (the female drow henchman in HotU whose name I'm not sure of) was one of the least emotionally disturbed and most enjoyable interactive friendship I've experienced in a CRPG (The other was a fan-made NPC for BG2 named Saerileth, who had even higher values). It culminated in a declaration of love and then effectively ended, in that no new discussions were had for the remainder of the campaign, and no gratuitous (cyber)sex (thank goodness).

 

I preferred that experience to the approach of BG2 where getting laid was your prize for picking the right responses (at least Aerie would later commit to marriage in-game). To make things worse, fans make mods that try to describe in textual detail the various staring, touching, fondling, and so on that occurs between the lovers, which isn't too surprising given that most of the authors are teenaged or in their twenties. Still, some things are better left to the imagination.

 

As to the varying responses one could offer in a friendship/romance, I'd kill the rude responses after friendship was established. I'm not one to coddle the random methods of some players, who like to take a romance to the very end and then cruelly dump/kill their mate. Unless they were attempting to roleplay a CN alignment, but then I'd make the NPC wary of getting involved with such a character.

 

The Electron engine supports rich character dialogs, so there's nothing stopping us modders from writing our own NPC relationships, and that's certainly something I intend to do. But first I'm going to finish the campaign so I get a better feel for what's possible.

[Darque]

Seems to me the male romance options are nicely written where us females get shafted with whiners and wimps>>> Anomen, Disciple and Carth. Whats the deal with that? I like romances but I have to play a male in order to get a decent one like Viconia or Aerie in BG2 or Bastila in K1.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's no kidding

[Darque]

I can sum up why I tend to view them negatively with three words and a two smileys:

 

Carth  <_< and Anomen

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wait 'till you get a hold of Disciple. Apparently he's even worse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks for the warning.

 

I'll make sure to avoid it. :D

[kirottu]

Seems to me the male romance options are nicely written where us females get shafted with whiners and wimps>>> Anomen, Disciple and Carth. Whats the deal with that? I like romances but I have to play a male in order to get a decent one like Viconia or Aerie in BG2 or Bastila in K1.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's no kidding

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Aerie was a whiner and a wimp.

[Azarkon]

Yeah, but many guys like that sort of personality. I'm not sure as to the opposite, but I have a feeling women don't typically like submissive men.

[Azarkon]

Btw, given that we've been mostly talking about Western RPG romances thus far, what are you guys' stance on JRPG romances? Like/don't like? Better/worse?

[Pidesco]

The best JRPG romance I've seen was in Xenogears. It was ok. No options, as far as I can remember, though.

[Maverick4101]

In my opinion JRPG romances are better. Since JRPGs tend to be more linear writers can focus on the best way to build up a relationship rather than relying on the player to select the "romance" dialogue option. You look at the big budget game series such as Final Fantasy, Xenosaga, Tales series, etc. there is little to no chance for customization, dialogue options, or any other ways to influence the plot so writers are free to develop parts of the plot such as romance.

 

However, I don

[Colrom]

However, I don

[CoM_Solaufein]

Yeah, but many guys like that sort of personality.  I'm not sure as to the opposite, but I have a feeling women don't typically like submissive men.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A Khalid romance? "

 

If a game has the time to explore a romance like Baldur's Gate 2, romances can be an interesting addition to a game. It took a reasonable amount of time to play BG2 and with that time, you could get to know and romance one of your party members in a "realistic" time period. The Kotor games do not pull this off well, they are shallow, the time is too short, game play wise, to be "realistic" to the player.

 

I am all for romances in games provided they are well written, a sufficient amount of time is made for you to get to know each other before a romance blossoms.

[PIPBoy3000]

I'll admit that romance was almost an afterthought for Shadowlords, though I had fun emphasizing it more for Dreamcatcher. What was surprising is that people really got excited about it and it was the one distinguishing thing mentioned every time the modules were reviewed.

 

I bowed to popular demand and am making sure it's one of the story elements for Dark Waters. I'm going for just two NPCs that can be romanced, but trying really hard to keep it meaningful and interesting. Keeping the pace slow is important to me too. It's the journey, not the destination, that matters the most.

[Dark_Raven]

Also, the way romance development in BG2, depended on how long you had been playing the game, and where your characters were at any given time, worked a lot better than just making the development dependent on what level you were on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Agreed, but BG2 takes a lot longer to finish than games today, and it often led to oddly placed romantic conversations...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Heh like after a hard fight a romance dialogue starts up.

 

Better control of timing is important.

[maia]

Heh like after a hard fight a romance dialogue starts up.

 

Better control of timing is important.

 

Well, _after_ a fight isn't so bad. They started imediately prior to and during fights in BG2 for me, sometimes. Maybe when there was some kind of lull or something?

 

Anyway, are there romances in NwN2 and who are the romance NPCs? Please spoil me as to their identity and romance limitations (race, alignment?) under a spoiler tag. I don't have the game yet, nor a video card to play it, but I am already planning some characters and would like to know what NPCs to count on in a a party. TIA.

[Arilou]

I loved the romances in BG2, sure, they had their problems, but they added an interesting layer of "accomplishment", and especially, a reason to go back and try the game again.

 

I'm not too fond of the "Get big bad sword and cut people to bits" reasons for going back and replaying the game, but I love trying out different role-playing strategies and getting different solutions (I love the different endings for different places you could get in Fallout, even completing the side-missions in Marvel: Ultimate Alliance gave you a neat glimpse of the future (ooops! I killed the East Coast!)

 

I think it is somewhat sad that the BG2 romances still stand as the best example of romances in-game because well.... They had problems (the entire "wait, and wait, and wait, and wait" thing for one, and the lack of female romances except Anomen (though I didn't find him *that* bad....)

 

Can it be done better? Almost certainly, but that won't happen unless developers *try*.

[Walsingham]

I think romances are a perfectly sensible thing to put in. Without them you'd leave some things rather flat. However, I've no objection to them being alluded to in flirting rather than full on romance, as Volo suggests.

 

On the other hand, I think that if we are going to have a really top class immersive RPG we'll have no option but to come up with SOME way of putting romance in. It's just going to be a stone cold bastard to do.

[Tigranes]

except Anomen (though I didn't find him *that* bad....)

 

My lady, did I tell you yet about the Hillwater Giants? My heroic feats felled them in a great orgasmic burst of admiration for my blinding righteousness.

 

Feel free to swoon now.

 

Nobody thought about my point about romances between party members? Not Jaheira-Khalid, but an actual romance. As the 'third man' / 'friend' the PC will be able to witness a lot of what happens and nudge them around, with scripted events working off those variables. Especially in a D&D game where you could be anything from a hunky Paladin to a chaotic halfling druid, it might work better - even if it doesn't have quite the impact of a romance with the player.

[Pidesco]

This is reminding me of Star Ocean, where you could increase and decrease the affinity between your party members, and the state of the friendship between them actually affected the way they performed in battle.

[Walsingham]

I just had a thought. It would be intensely amusing to see the characters fall into romantic love then find that it was just a trifle hard to be lovey dovey when the universe is exploding around you. I would also imagine that romantic notions are reduced when you are covered in stinking troll guts. But I am a bit old fashioned.

 

*sobs*

[Arilou]

except Anomen (though I didn't find him *that* bad....)

 

My lady, did I tell you yet about the Hillwater Giants? My heroic feats felled them in a great orgasmic burst of admiration for my blinding righteousness.

 

Feel free to swoon now.

 

Nobody thought about my point about romances between party members? Not Jaheira-Khalid, but an actual romance. As the 'third man' / 'friend' the PC will be able to witness a lot of what happens and nudge them around, with scripted events working off those variables. Especially in a D&D game where you could be anything from a hunky Paladin to a chaotic halfling druid, it might work better - even if it doesn't have quite the impact of a romance with the player.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh, don't get me wrong, Anomen was kind of a dork. But I think he was a pretty well-fleshed out dork.

 

And yeah, third-party romances would be great as well.

 

Make Love, not descents into identical caves inhabited by orcs!

[Plano Skywalker]

bottom line: it needs to be a gameplay thing and not just a roleplay thing...there should be real, quantifiable advantages to "going steady" or getting married in-game.

 

the designers will always have corny flirt lines and the AI needed for a more believable romance would be, well, asking a lot.

[Jaesun]

I hate romances in CRPG's.. but that just because I'll never see a decent or well written Gay (Not Female/Female) romace in any CRPG anytime ever.

 

I'd rather they spend dev time on other things.

[Volourn]

Did you play JE?

[Pop]

I'm all for romance if they can make it work over an extended period of time. Like somebody said here earlier, KOTOR and other Bioware games made them happen too quick. I liked BG2's romances (never played Anomen's, so I can't comment on that) in part because they weren't tied to the main story, for the most part. In KOTOR and JE, the romances came to fruition at the very end. In BG2, the romance mostly takes place towards the middle part of the game, and continues into the expansion. I really liked how they worked the Viconia romance, and the epilogue made the whole thing a tragedy, which I thought was pretty mature of them, at least in relation to the "happily ever after" plots of other games (notable exception of KOTOR).

 

I too think third-party romances would be great. I'd love to see how they could actually work that into the game. Perhaps they could work better together in combat.

[Walsingham]

I was thinking it might be quite cool to start out with a romance. Then you'd have all the fun of trying to ditch her! Then depending on how well you do she might start trying to kill you.

 

...I really am giving away too much about me aren't i?

[Pop]

I was thinking it might be quite cool to start out with a romance. Then you'd have all the fun of trying to ditch her!  Then depending on how well you do she might start trying to kill you.

 

...I really am giving away too much about me aren't i?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

u!

 

I don't think that would go down too well with most people. Pigeonholing people into a PC-NPC relationship like that. Usually players like to have control over that thing, at least starting characters off as good friends and moving into intimate relationships. Or, as in the case of Viconia, having an antagonistic relationship that moves into intimacy. But if you start off with a romance, it's bad. Being with that character might be something completely against what the player is trying to RP, and that creates dissonance. It delegitimizes the entire Roleplaying experience. If you have to break off that romance right at the beginning, the obvious next question is, why was it like that in the first place?

 

That having been said, there are some interesting concepts that can come out of this. For example, you could have that old RPG warhorse, amnesia! The PC starts off the game, and there's this other character that he loved before, who he doesn't remember or feels for now, who still loves him, or maybe she hates him because of something he did in his effective "past life". The PC is then put in an interesting dilemma, PS:T style.

 

Then again, you also have romance as drama sponge. For example, Obsidian could very well have dragged out the prologue to NWN2, and made Amie the character's love interest, fleshed out the character more, and then BAM dead. Instant drama, instant forward force into the bulk of the game as the character sets out for revenge and answers, FF7 style. However, you're rolling the dice with that, as it could be the case that the significant other is an unliked character, in which case a player might not be willing to go through the game when the genesis of the story is the death of a character he didn't really care about all that much. In that case, you could institute a BG2 kind of dichotomy, where you can either go after Irenicus to save Imoen, or to unlock your own power, but the results would be the same.

 

If you're looking at RPGs from a narrative standpoint, romance is completely acceptable and in some cases, completely necessary.

Edited November 8, 2006 by Pop