Volourn's Wowwy Journey With NWN2:Spoiler Edition

[Deraldin]

I just noticed but Neeshka has a tail now...

[Wistrik]

Yep, I just noticed it was fixed in her blueprint file in the toolset (she's listed under Companions). She's been relegated to the Inn in my game so I hadn't noticed yet since installing the beta patch. I'll have to have a look tomorrow when I have a chance to play.

[Deraldin]

Yep, I just noticed it was fixed in her blueprint file in the toolset (she's listed under Companions). She's been relegated to the Inn in my game so I hadn't noticed yet since installing the beta patch. I'll have to have a look tomorrow when I have a chance to play.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Just picked her up in my third (8th if you count all the characters that I haven't gotten farther than the tutorial) game. I was half paying attention to the cutscene with the guards when I noticed the tail swing back and forth.

 

I suppose that might have something to do with how Sargy got wings on his Aasimar character...

[alanschu]

I don't mind the decision that only Ammon Jerro and Zjhaeve could read the scrolls.

 

Sometimes I think it's silly when everyone can do anything, including pronounce "awo3i45u23opnjwc" correctly

 

 

I didn't mind Jerro's entrance into the party either, but I believe that that was because I interpreted the significance of him doing the last ritual differently. I guess if they just made it mandatory that at some point against the KoS you had to use his ritual, it'd be okay. But they didn't.

 

 

To be honest, I like it when some things are out of the player's control. I was happy that there was no way to save Shandra. Making all the events of the game completely deterministic by player actions is actually a negative for me. What I really love is when there's a choice, where if you make the choice to do one thing, the other option results in something bad happening. An example I remember is in the questions that Batlin raises to you in Ultima VII. He describes a situation where you, your mother, and your betrothed are all lost at sea, and you have the choice to either save your mother, or save your betrothed. Whatever choice you make, results in the death of the other. There's no way to save them both.

 

I like stuff like that. I find it makes the game more emotional for me.

[Pop]

I don't mind the decision that only Ammon Jerro and Zjhaeve could read the scrolls.

 

Sometimes I think it's silly when everyone can do anything, including pronounce "awo3i45u23opnjwc" correctly

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It made sense to me too, since (I'm assuming) both characters are supposed to be of advanced age and versed in the obscure lore required to fight the KoS. But even then, it didn't make a whole lot of sense to make their character levels equal to the players'

 

I didn't mind Jerro's entrance into the party either, but I believe that that was because I interpreted the significance of him doing the last ritual differently.  I guess if they just made it mandatory that at some point against the KoS you had to use his ritual, it'd be okay.  But they didn't.

That seems to be the major problem everybody has with AJ (myself included) because by the end you realize that hey, you really didn't need him, and thus he becomes a forced NPC and most players don't seem to like that. But by the same token, if they had required the web of purity, the game would be unbeatable (or at the very least, much harder) if you had no means to protect / resurrect him. He died at least twice during my KoS battle. They also wouldn't have been able to give him the chance to defect.

 

To be honest, I like it when some things are out of the player's control. I was happy that there was no way to save Shandra.  Making all the events of the game completely deterministic by player actions is actually a negative for me.  What I really love is when there's a choice, where if you make the choice to do one thing, the other option results in something bad happening.  An example I remember is in the questions that Batlin raises to you in Ultima VII.  He describes a situation where you, your mother, and your betrothed are all lost at sea, and you have the choice to either save your mother, or save your betrothed.  Whatever choice you make, results in the death of the other.  There's no way to save them both.

 

I like stuff like that.  I find it makes the game more emotional for me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Certainly that's a good way to go about it. Being between a rock and a hard place is much more effective dramatically than scripted events or even obvious good/evil choices, even when the consequences of either are not clear cut (I'm reminded of the original planned Junktown endings for Fallout, where the "good" outcome came from siding with Gizmo and the "bad" outcome came from siding with Killian) even better is that difficult choice that could result in a no-upside conclusion. Maybe by choosing to save your betrothed, both of them die.

 

Still, what would they have done? Make the player choose between Shandra and AJ? For many, that would have been no choice at all. Shandra and Elanee would have been better, but then you're deprived of one of the two clerical spellcasters.

Edited November 28, 2006 by Pop

[Tigranes]

Pop: I'm sorta persuaded on the scrolls thing.. I'd probably have found it a good thing if I wasn't already ticked off by then with carrying Shandra around for all of Act 2. I think I can deal with every other instance, and certainly i think having to save AJ is a good thing, but for 30% of the game for no discernable reason (in the plot)? Badness.

 

Shandra and AJ might have been interesting, if only to say, AJ has the final ritual, without it it will be much more difficult, perhaps impossible, will you still choose Shandra?

[alanschu]

It made sense to me too, since (I'm assuming) both characters are supposed to be of advanced age and versed in the obscure lore required to fight the KoS. But even then, it didn't make a whole lot of sense to make their character levels equal to the players'

 

That's a crux of pretty much every RPG though. Faulting NWN2 for that is to fault the entire genre. Even Baldur's Gate had the NPCs starting with differing experience levels based on when you first met them.

 

That seems to be the major problem everybody has with AJ (myself included) because by the end you realize that hey, you really didn't need him, and thus he becomes a forced NPC and most players don't seem to like that. But by the same token, if they had required the web of purity, the game would be unbeatable (or at the very least, much harder) if you had no means to protect / resurrect him. He died at least twice during my KoS battle. They also wouldn't have been able to give him the chance to defect.

 

Hence why I said that they should have made it mandatory for him to use his ritual skill. But then like you said, if they did that, if he (or you) gets KO'd during the last fight, there's no point in even going on (if you're out of resurrections). Some of us may all clamour for a less forgiving, and more difficult game, but imagine how much it would suck for you to get to the final stage of the fight and realize you were screwed because Jerro was KO'd and you couldn't revive him.

 

The impression I got though, was that his mere presence was required, so as far as I was concerned, I still did really need him.

 

As for Ammon Jerro defecting, does he? I never gained any influence with him in my game, and he didn't defect. However, if he can defect, then I think that THAT is stupid. Here's a guy who's entire life purpose was to destroy the King of Shadows, and when he finally gets to it, he defects? THAT is stupid. Fortunately that never happened to me in my first playthrough, or it would have really soured the ending.

 

Certainly that's a good way to go about it. Being between a rock and a hard place is much more effective dramatically than scripted events or even obvious good/evil choices, even when the consequences of either are not clear cut (I'm reminded of the original planned Junktown endings for Fallout, where the "good" outcome came from siding with Gizmo and the "bad" outcome came from siding with Killian) even better is that difficult choice that could result in a no-upside conclusion.

 

I don't remember Killian's ending being the "bad" ending.

 

 

Still, what would they have done? Make the player choose between Shandra and AJ? For many, that would have been no choice at all. Shandra and Elanee would have been better, but then you're deprived of one of the two clerical spellcasters.

 

I wasn't so much referring to Ammon Jerro when I wrote this, but rather the idea that it should be possible to do have any outcome you desire. I was referring to the idea that it's not possible for anyone to read the scrolls. Unless I'm versed in its dialect and language (which it seems Ammon Jerro and Zjhaeve are), I think it's silly that me and my Watchman background could just pick up a scroll with a foreign language on it and recite it with success.

[Tigranes]

Hence why I said that they should have made it mandatory for him to use his ritual skill. But then like you said, if they did that, if he (or you) gets KO'd during the last fight, there's no point in even going on (if you're out of resurrections). Some of us may all clamour for a less forgiving, and more difficult game, but imagine how much it would suck for you to get to the final stage of the fight and realize you were screwed because Jerro was KO'd and you couldn't revive him.

 

Considering A) characters revive if you lure the enemies away and B) you get given a rod of resurrection with lots of charges, I'd say it would be hard but fair. Obsidian could even have added like 50 charges to that rod, or make another rod be in a chest just before the battle.

 

Also, the ritual might only have been neded at the START of the battle.

 

Ammon Jerro does not defect. I would be very surprised if he did.

[alanschu]

What if the person with the rod was KO'd?

 

But yeah, you could make the ritual required at the beginning. Heck, they could even do it in a cutscene.

[Pop]

He's given the chance to. My impression was that if you got him to regret killing Shandra, he becomes defect-proof. I think the Obs writers were hinting that AJ had made so many moral compromises in the name of defeating the KoS that he was truly evil by that point, and he was simply rationalizing his actions, such that if you don't get him to regret killing Shandra, he'd be capable of a complete idealogical 180. Heart of Darkness and all that. But I've only gotten to the ending once, that might not be the case. Seemed odd that Garius would even attempt to persuade AJ, but he did. Maybe there were other defect-proof NPC-Garius dialogues that got cut. It would have been great if a PC who paid no mind at all to influence ended up on the wrong side of his entire party.

 

As for Fallout, the bad Killian ending was not implemented, but the idea was seriously considered (Interplay may have nixed it, if they had such power) Originally, siding with Killian resulted in him becoming an iron-fisted frontier tyrant, hanging people left and right, eventually dooming the town and siding with Gizmo resulted in Junktown becoming a prosperous but dark (it's Fallout) New Reno-style free market casino town.

Edited November 28, 2006 by Pop

[alanschu]

I know Garius asks, but will Ammon Jerro actually accept? I have no problem with Garius asking. IIRC, Jerro shuts him down. I don't even recall if there was an [influence: Success] latched on to his dialogue.

 

And I would still never buy that 180. His entire purpose has been to kill the KoS. Sure, he could do other evil stuff to do so (he's a fanatic), but to suddenly ALLY with his nemesis?

 

 

Ah, so that Killian ending wasn't the actual ending. I couldn't see MacGuyver doing that though!

Edited November 28, 2006 by alanschu

[Tigranes]

What if the person with the rod was KO'd?

 

Even when dead, you can click on characters in NWN2 and access their inventory. I've had this save me often - when everyone except Khelgar died he'd just poach all the potions instantly regardless of distance. Kinda munchkinish, though, if they're on the other end of the map.

 

And yeah, it should be in a cutscene, or right at the start; and I thought the abilities were way, way too weak. 5 rounds, +1 attack? Aurora Chain is pretty much a freaking Bless spell. The only useful one is that one which cures all negative effects and works like a super-restoration. Way too bothersome. They should have made the effects a lot more unique, and useful.

 

And pop, I can see where you are coming from, but I think there isn't enough material in-game to justify such an 180 and make it feasible; with extra depth and extra few hours in the game, it perhaps could be. But in the game AJ more or less straight goes to SHANDRA DIES -> WE FIGHT KOS. I don't think there is an option for him to turn and there shouldn't be, as it stands.

[alanschu]

Even when dead, you can click on characters in NWN2 and access their inventory. I've had this save me often - when everyone except Khelgar died he'd just poach all the potions instantly regardless of distance. Kinda munchkinish, though, if they're on the other end of the map.

 

Heh, more exploitative than munchkinish.

 

 

And yeah, it should be in a cutscene, or right at the start; and I thought the abilities were way, way too weak. 5 rounds, +1 attack? Aurora Chain is pretty much a freaking Bless spell. The only useful one is that one which cures all negative effects and works like a super-restoration. Way too bothersome. They should have made the effects a lot more unique, and useful.

 

There was one that harmed the undead that came in really handy at various points in the game (and worked on KoS too IIRC).

[aVENGER]

As for Ammon Jerro defecting, does he?  I never gained any influence with him in my game, and he didn't defect.  However, if he can defect, then I think that THAT is stupid.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Even if you fail his influence check, Ammon Jerro still won't betray you in the end:

 

 

"[influence: Failure] {Tired, almost bored of evil speeches} Whatever faults of the one we follow, we are here to kill the King of Shadows, not listen to the chattering of one of his servants, Garius. {Contempt} I have had my goal for decades, and I did not burn in the Hells in agony to give up to one such as you."

 

[alanschu]

Thanks. That makes sense. It'd be absurd if it was any other way.

[Dark_Raven]

I just noticed but Neeshka has a tail now...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Patch 1.03 corrects her missing tail, I believe.

[Volourn]

"Here's a guy who's entire life purpose was to destroy the King of Shadows, and when he finally gets to it, he defects? THAT is stupid."

 

Hey, it's possible for Sand to betray the PC and NW simply because of Qara and books. LMAO

 

Sand doesn't really seem like the jealous type. :crazy:

 

And, oh, does anyone know what excuse Khelgar gives for joining the KOS (if he does)? Or Grobnar? Or other npcs?

Edited November 28, 2006 by Volourn

[Spider]

Just out of the blue (well, it's about the end fight), I think it was kinda cool that you get Bishop back as an ally if you side with the KoS.

 

Edit: I don't think Khelgar can join KoS. Or Elanee. Or Grobnar, although if you fail your influence check with Grobnar (and Bishop presumably) Construct goes over.

Edited November 28, 2006 by Spider

[Wistrik]

I don't like the forced characters because they disrupt the party. In other games I've played (which don't include KotoR/2 thank goodness), if a character had to tag along for a quest, he was added to the party. He didn't replace someone in the party. Baldur's Gate 2 provided many opportunities to have NPCs join for a quest, but you were given the ability to tell them to go on ahead and meet you, so that you weren't forced to rearrange the party.

 

If I was a level 1 character all through the game who had no authority except over his personal equipment, then I could see having characters forced into my company. In NWN2 I become one of the Nine, a Knight Captain, and lord of Crossroad Keep, and still I have no say in who's in my party half the time. Sure it's usually only one character making a nuisance of themselves, but that's enough to get on my nerves, given this is the first game I've played that breaks with the old, preferred tradition.

 

I was able to solo NWN's OC a few times, and it was a blast. No such luck with NWN2's OC, so there goes half my fun.

 

So there it is. Most of you appear to disagree with me, but that doesn't change how I feel. The OC is carved in stone so all I can do it hope future expansions will be more considerate of the player. Regardless, I'm getting used to the toolset so I'll have my own modules before long, and will be able to kiss the OC goodbye. (Unless I go off the deep end and modify it in a big way; I do enjoy most of it's other elements.)

[aVENGER]

The OC is carved in stone so all I can do it hope future expansions will be more considerate of the player. Regardless, I'm getting used to the toolset so I'll have my own modules before long, and will be able to kiss the OC goodbye. (Unless I go off the deep end and modify it in a big way; I do enjoy most of it's other elements.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'd advise against doing that as Atari seems to dislike people publishing modified versions of the NWN2 official campaign.

 

Recently, some modder released a more multiplayer-friendly version of the OC but was soon forced to take it down after he received a "cease and desist" order from Atari executives.

[Wistrik]

I never said anything about publishing my changes. I've been modifying (modding) games since the 80s without a hitch, due to not letting the stuff leave my computer.

 

Edit: bad sentence form.

Edited November 28, 2006 by Wistrik

[roshan]

I don't like the forced characters because they disrupt the party. In other games I've played (which don't include KotoR/2 thank goodness), if a character had to tag along for a quest, he was added to the party. He didn't replace someone in the party. Baldur's Gate 2 provided many opportunities to have NPCs join for a quest, but you were given the ability to tell them to go on ahead and meet you, so that you weren't forced to rearrange the party.

 

If I was a level 1 character all through the game who had no authority except over his personal equipment, then I could see having characters forced into my company. In NWN2 I become one of the Nine, a Knight Captain, and lord of Crossroad Keep, and still I have no say in who's in my party half the time. Sure it's usually only one character making a nuisance of themselves, but that's enough to get on my nerves, given this is the first game I've played that breaks with the old, preferred tradition.

 

I was able to solo NWN's OC a few times, and it was a blast. No such luck with NWN2's OC, so there goes half my fun.

 

So there it is. Most of you appear to disagree with me, but that doesn't change how I feel. The OC is carved in stone so all I can do it hope future expansions will be more considerate of the player. Regardless, I'm getting used to the toolset so I'll have my own modules before long, and will be able to kiss the OC goodbye. (Unless I go off the deep end and modify it in a big way; I do enjoy most of it's other elements.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree with you. Another major problem is that there is often no rational reason for why the NPC is in your party. Take Zhjaeve accompanying you to the spirit dragon, for example. The only thing she did was make a couple of stupid comments on the way. Why the hell did we have to take her along?

 

Obsidian has really screwed up this game.

[Dark_Raven]

"Here's a guy who's entire life purpose was to destroy the King of Shadows, and when he finally gets to it, he defects? THAT is stupid."

 

Hey, it's possible for Sand to betray the PC and NW simply because of Qara and books. LMAO

 

Sand doesn't really seem like the jealous type. :crazy:

 

And, oh, does anyone know what excuse Khelgar gives for joining the KOS (if he does)? Or Grobnar? Or other npcs?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sand is too cool to betray the main character.

 

Qara would, being the arrogant bitch that she is.

[alanschu]

I preferred Qara to Sand. She melts faces. Appropriately, it was her that killed Sand in the final fight.

[Darque]

Sand was pretty cool.

 

Really annoyed me at the begining... but his reply to Garius still cracks me up.

 

As for Qara.... I was actually surprised to see her go.

 

But not so surprised I didn't drop a meteor storm on her and the take her down by hand. I deal with betrayers personally, yaknow.