NWN 2 Henchmen

[Volourn]

Ok, people. There's no need to pile on poor Raven. She gets the message. Let's say it together: Game over.

[Nartwak]

I'm pretty sure

Amie and Bevil

are tutorial companions.

 

I think I read that someplace.

Edited October 15, 2006 by Nartwak

[Judge Hades]

Did you actually read what you quoted?  These two posts do NOT contradict each other.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This was already covered. Please join us at NOW.

[Pop]

I'm pretty sure

Amie and Bevil

are tutorial companions.

 

I think I read that someplace.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To the videos!

 

I'd also have to agree that KOTOR-style death is not very suspenseful.

[Judge Hades]

I hope they fix it in a patch or an expansion.

[Darque]

Did you actually read what you quoted?  These two posts do NOT contradict each other.

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This was already covered. Please join us at NOW.

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[Judge Hades]

I was thinking of going through a whole Spaceball thingie but that would be just over the top.

[alanschu]

You have chosen to ignore Judge Hades. View this post

[Judge Hades]

Don't really care, Alan. That is your choice, not mine.

 

Just as much you enjoy calling me out when I act like an ass I will most certainly return the favor.

Edited October 16, 2006 by Judge Hades

[Atreides]

I hope they fix it in a patch or an expansion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They could certainly hook that up in an expansion with a new story but I'm not sure how that'd work in this OC without major story surgery.

[Kaftan Barlast]

The choice the devs have is either cut out large parts of the story to allow for the random death of party members, or to make them unkillable so they will be there for the story parts which require their presence.

 

Until we get true AI which can alter the story instantly and in a satisfying way to compensate for anything the player wants to do, we have to compromise.

 

 

Personally I like story more than player freedom so I dont mind KOTOR systems.

[Tigranes]

BG2 didn't mind if Imoen died permanently.

 

I think it depends on the story, and some stories, such as BG Saga, succeeded in one where the main thread can be supplemented by companion stories and companion stories can also interconnect, but they can also be removed. It was clearly designed from fairly early on with the aim of permanently dying / removed party members and their having a big role in the story.

 

I'd put NWN2 down to a little bit of 1/ not designing the story, whether intentionally or unable to, to do the same; 2/ most games not being able to be as gargantuan a project as BG2.

 

edit: speaking of NWN2, shouldn't it be Gold by now? I thought their latest release date was twenty-something of October.

Edited October 16, 2006 by Tigranes

[Dark_Raven]

According to the toolset these are some NPCs with their own starting packages:

 

 

Grobnar - Bard

Zhjaeve - Cleric

Elanee - Druid

Khelgar - Fighter

Shandra - Fighter

Construct - Fighter

Bevil - Fighter

Khelgar - Monk (Too much dwarf for just one package.)

Casavir - Paladin

Bishop - Ranger

Neeshka - Rogue

Qara - Sorcerer

Ammon Jerro - Warlock

Sand - Wizard

Amie - Wizard

 

 

I'm not clear how which are player companions however.

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What the hell? Not too original are they? There are how many classes in the game? WoWzers!

[Dark_Raven]

I think I won this  'argument' with Raven, and I don't have to add anything. My minions squashed her. Sorry. I usually enjoy that kind of fun too.

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nothing to win. Just pointing out a flaw in what you said. Or was I questioning it?

 

Yep. I hate the whole no death bullcrap. That majorly kills any sort of challenge the game might have.

That it does. Edited October 16, 2006 by Dark_Raven

[Judge Hades]

I hope they fix it in a patch or an expansion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They could certainly hook that up in an expansion with a new story but I'm not sure how that'd work in this OC without major story surgery.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

J.E. said it would take about 6 to 9 months of work. The expansion could be an in game expansion wheich expands the OC to new areas, put in more material in to fill out the OC in the base game more, along with added content and beef up the druid so it can be equal to the other classes.

[Atreides]

If they're going to make an expansion, they might as well use that effort to tell a new story. I don't think they'd spend that much of effort just to go over the OC again. I hope we get minor content patches that would do the latter (say new areas etc).

[Volourn]

"Until we get true AI which can alter the story instantly and in a satisfying way to compensate for anything the player wants to do, we have to compromise."

 

Eh? This is getting repetive. PST, and BG2 are two games prove that you can have npcs important to the story and game while still making them fully killable. Why do people keep talking about needing to compromise?

 

 

As for an expansion continuing the OC; I doubt it unless they add epic levels which is a possibility. Afterall, the OC in NWN2 will get you to level 16-20 most likely. In a Mr. Sawyer example, his character got to level 19. And, I doubt an expansion would only give you one level. LOL :D

[Girias_Solo]

I agree with Volourn about the compromising. This has already been done before, I fail to see why any compromising is needed in this case.

 

Do any of you think that levels are being given out a little easy in DnD games on PC's? I remember playing the old SSI games and getting to Level 8 in Pool of radiance. Fireball was Godlike. :cool: Now it seems Epic levels are the norm, for a game thats 60 hours?

 

Perhaps if they kept levels lower, this would allow sequels to add to the first game better.

[Darth Drabek]

BG2 didn't mind if Imoen died permanently.

 

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They did not allow Imoen to die in Irenicus' Dungeon. If her HP went low she ran off screaming and you met up at the end of the dungeon. It was a developer-implemented trigger to make sure the story progressed as it needed to.

 

I agree with your points about the design of the companion stories and their optional supplement to the main story arc.

 

I think each NPC should have their own quest, which dovetails in some way with the goals of the PC. Otherwise, If you want to kill off everyone you don't like, as some here seem to enjoy doing, you should be punished for it. NPC quests give you XP and cool items to make your NPC better, like Anomen's knighthood challenge. If they want to lose great NPCs by killing them off or never picking them up in the first place, fine. No problem.

 

But that age of gaming is gone, guys. There's just too many variables, and a current game with that kind of freedom would probably take a decade to make.

 

And that's why there is a need to compromise, because in the current generation of games you need the animated cutscenes. They've become expected content in video games, but they're expensive and time consuming to create (not that I have any practical experience, but I'm pretty sure I'm correct on that). And no development studio has the budget to make 12 different versions of the same cutscene showing all the different variables of who died and who didn't. At least not yet. If they choose to implement permadeath but don't make the changes in each cutscene, the player would be left scratching his/her head at times:

 

"Hey, didn't he die in a grease fire back on Dantooine?"

 

That's why I think Kaftan is spot on with his assessment of the problem. And no, I don't have any solutions, except spend more money and time on a game to implement both the cool in-game movies we've come to expect and the freedom of NPC choice. But a game like that would take so long to develop the engine would be obsolete by the time it was released, so its sales would tank anyway.

[Girias_Solo]

Darth, I agree with some of your points. However, I cannot agree with you about the 'change' in the way things are done.

 

I am not saying anything along the lines of '3D sucks!' or anything like that. But from looking around at best selling games, the sims certainly isn't what I would call cutting edge in the graphics department, yet its the biggest selling game of all time. No cutscenes, no mega-killer graphics.

 

Actually, I believe that many would forgive lesser graphics if the gameplay is there. GTA SA sold a gazillion copies. Not for its graphics and cutscenes. RPG's have a lot going for them, and cutscenes is not what I had in mind.

 

Large explorable world,great Character interaction, many classes to choose from, various ways of completing goals, varied settings. You name it, RPG's can have it. And having the best graphics engine is not one of the things that is necessarily needed.

 

If the game itself is awesome, and it has 'decent' graphics, the crowds will come running. See above games to know what Im saying.

[metadigital]

I agree with Volourn about the compromising. This has already been done before, I fail to see why any compromising is needed in this case.

 

Do any of you think that levels are being given out a little easy in DnD games on PC's? I remember playing the old SSI games and getting to Level 8 in Pool of radiance. Fireball was Godlike. :cool:  Now it seems Epic levels are the norm, for a game thats 60 hours?

 

Perhaps if they kept levels lower, this would allow sequels to add to the first game better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes.

 

Also, characters of lower-levels are better for role-playing and making players THINK; if the PC can use any one of twenty life-taking spells, or nineteen different types of weapon (equally), then there is less impetus to improve tactics.

[Darth Drabek]

All of those things you mentioned do indeed make RPGs great, and I agree with you that the graphics don't have to be cutting edge for a game to be enjoyable (hell, I'm playing Baldur's Gate a lot lately, and that game is eight years old).

 

I just think that it was a probably a lot easier to flesh out a wide variety of storyline options back when the general audience expected to read most of the story, instead of watching it unfold in a cutscene with voice actors synched to the the animations.

 

And the more NPCs that can join your party, the more work it would be to fully integrate them into the plot, or create alternate plots in case a vital NPC gets food poisoning and dies along the way, rendering them unable to deliver their epiphany to the PC before the final battle.

 

And please don't call me Darth. DD or Drabs are both fine. :D

[Musopticon?]

Ask Fio to change your nick to Drabek or Dr D. It can be done.

[Darth Drabek]

Maybe I should... usernames with "Darth" in them are so last year.

[Dark_Raven]

"Until we get true AI which can alter the story instantly and in a satisfying way to compensate for anything the player wants to do, we have to compromise."

 

Eh? This is getting repetive. PST, and BG2 are two games prove that you can have npcs important to the story and game while still making them fully killable. Why do people keep talking about needing to compromise?

 

 

As for an expansion continuing the OC; I doubt it unless they add epic levels which is a possibility. Afterall, the OC in NWN2 will get you to level 16-20 most likely. In a Mr. Sawyer example, his character got to level 19. And, I doubt an expansion would only give you one level. LOL :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A level 20 cap sucks. It should at least be 40. I want my character to be maxed out by the time I meet the final baddy.