Fallout goes d20

[Judge Hades]

The problem it seems is that you have very whiny players. At the start of a campaign I lay out the rules, the classes, and the whatnot right at the beginning of the campaign. I do not change those rules, classes, and whatnot throughout the campaign for any reason in order to maintain consistancy. If a player doesn't like them or if he wants to add in a class, tough. If he doesn't like it then he can go to a different group. Plain and simple.

 

When I started a new d20 Campaign I write up a Player Primer. It states all the rules changes, available classes for progression, list of feats that are available, spells and psionics (if used) that will be in or not. I don't let my players bring me every little dragon article or whine about every miniscule rule that I changed. If they did I would show them the door.

 

The GM is not suppose to be the bad guy but he isn't suppose to be a spineless jellyfish. It is your setting, it is your game, you are the GM and you set the rules. The d20 System, in all its glory, is set up to give a person options in how to run his or her campaign. The freedom in making changes.

 

It seems to me that you, as a GM, are player-whipped. Sad, just sad.

Edited June 25, 2006 by Judge Hades

[Jediphile]

The problem it seems is that you have very whiny players.  At the start of a campaign I lay out the rules, the classes, and the whatnot right at the beginning of the campaign.  I do not change those rules, classes, and whatnot throughout the campaign for any reason in order to maintain consistancy.  If a player doesn't like them or if he wants to add in a class, tough.  If he doesn't like it then he can go to a different group.  Plain and simple.

 

When I started a new d20 Campaign I write up a Player Primer.  It states all the rules changes, available classes for progression, list of feats that are available, spells and psionics (if used) that will be in or not.  I don't let my players bring me every little dragon article or whine about every miniscule rule that I changed.  If they did I would show them the door.

 

The GM is not suppose to be the bad guy but he isn't suppose to be a spineless jellyfish.  It is your setting, it is your game, you are the GM and you set the rules.  The d20 System, in all its glory, is set up to give a person options in how to run his or her campaign.  The freedom in making changes.

 

It seems to me that you, as a GM, are player-whipped.  Sad, just sad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sheesh, what a hopeless generalization to make simply on the basis that I don't want to listen to players moaning about stuff like this. For the record, my players are not whiny, and I stick by my guns, but then players have left my table for just that reason. That you infer this paints me as spineless and/or my players as whiny is pure sophistry, and I note that you're not denying that the phenomenon does occur, where players moan about this sort of thing. Indeed, you basically support the idea with your comments, but you still appear unwilling to accept the consequences of that observation.

 

And yes, that is sad, just sad.

[Judge Hades]

The consequence is the DM gets rid of a whiny player and the player finds a group more to his or her liking. It looks like a win win situation to me.

Edited June 25, 2006 by Judge Hades

[213374U]

Yes, things like Attacks of Opportunity follow the KISS principle... 

Eh... they do. What's so hard about attacks of opportunity? Only a few things to remember, really.

 

 

I may voice criticism of the d20 rules, but at least that's on a basis of having played them and even written adventures for those rules. If you're trying to infer that I'm just bashing d20 out of bias, then I must refute that - my position is very firmly rooted in bad experience not just from playing d20, but also from writing for it as a GM and as a designer. Is it a horrible system? No, but it could certainly have been a lot better with little effort, and I continue to find utter disappointing in its improvements (or lack thereof) compared to 2e.

Aye, your position is very firmly established, seeing how you are just another GM with a whiny player group. If it could have been so much better "with little effort", then what's keeping you from making those changes yourself, and ending up with an awesome system? Shouldn't be too difficult to pull, after all, you are a "designer", right?

 

Or maybe it's just that you suck at GMing, and that's why players get frustrated with you. I don't have enough information to decide which one it is.

 

 

Even Monte Cook has basically said that 3.5e is a sales gimmick in his review of it (which now seems strangely absent from his website now), so it's not as if I'm alone in voicing criticism, even if I disagree with him that the core 3e rules were good. But then he's scarcely impartial, having actually written those rules. That he voiced criticism of 3.5e speaks volumes.

Even assuming what you're saying is true... so what? Opinions are like a$$holes.

 

And at any rate, why is it bad that it's a sales gimmick? Do you expect people to give you the fruits of their work for free? If it's a scam, then just don't buy it. You can always keep playing 2e/3e if you dislike 3.5 so much... Hell, you can even stick to d6 if it's so great.

 

 

But if my opinions are unpalatable to your apparent preference for d20, then I'm truly sorry 

No. What I find unpalatable is that you make up crap (d6 > d20 lol) at every remote chance you get, just so you can keep fighting the good fight. I'm sorry that your "let's bash d20!" snorefest of a thread is dead and buried, but that's just no excuse to hijack other topics and clog them with irrelevant opinions and outright lies. Edited June 25, 2006 by 213374U

[Jediphile]

That doesn't change the fact that it's annoying for me to have any flow to the rules spread out over all the various supplements and magazines instead of including it all in the core, where I can let players make their characters on an equal footing. I can do that in GURPS, because the core foundation is firmly established. I can't do it in d20.

[Judge Hades]

All the rules of the game are in the core book (In the prime 3 for DnD). Everything else is OPTIONAL.

 

You do know what OPTIONAL means, right Jediphile?

 

All you need to run d20 Modern is the d20 Modern core book.

 

All yoou need to run Dungeons and Dragons are the DMG, PHB, and MM.

 

All you need to run Spycraft d20 is the Spycraft core book.

 

All you need to run Star Wars d20 is the Star Wars d20 core book.

 

All the rules of the game that one needs to play are in the core book. All other books are OPTIONAL.

 

O-P-T-I-O-N-A-L! In case you need to spelled out for you. Sheesh.

[Jediphile]

What does that have to do with the point of my last post about d20 having no firmly established foundation to base the rules on?

 

Besides, you can scream optional till you're blue in the face - my experience still tells me that most players won't see it that way, and will still refer to "OMG - cool new uber-skills/classes kicks butts in Song and Silence" or whatever. Surely you realise this - it's not that difficult

 

I'll see your "sheesh" and raise you a "gee, come on already!"

[Judge Hades]

Then most of the players you have had were being completely whiny and unreasonable. In my experience the players I have had completely accepted what I were allow and not allow in my campaigns. Also the d20 System does have a firm foundation. Its called the System Reference Document. You can't get more firm of foundation which all d20 System games pretty much refer to in game mechanics.

 

It seems that you do have whiny players in your game, power gaming munchkins you will whine to the point that you give in. Thank god I have had more mature players than that.

[Jediphile]

[Sammael]

Even Monte Cook has basically said that 3.5e is a sales gimmick in his review of it (which now seems strangely absent from his website now)

This is the same Monte Cook who published a revised version of his alternative d20 PH, Arcana Unearthed, only a year after the original? Hah. Yes, I am well aware of his review, but the main point is - 3.5 rules are vastly superior to 3.0 in most of their aspects.

[metadigital]

http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/dload.php...egory&cat_id=63

 

This is going to be removed soon so enjoy while you can

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^Here you go.

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Thanks and thanks.

 

[Judge Hades]

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[alanschu]

Yes, things like Attacks of Opportunity follow the KISS principle...

 

I was particularly surprised to see Jediphile pull this argument out...

[Judge Hades]

I found Attacks of Opportunity pretty easy to figure out.

[Kaftan Barlast]

Lots of other games have similar rules.

 

+ makes sense that youd get a free attack on an enemy who puts his sword down, picks up a potion from his napsack and start chugging in it in the middle of combat.

 

- doesnt make sense that somehow, time stops and allows you to attack a couple of extra times depending on what your enemies do.

 

 

edit: I hope I didnt just hijack this thread into another AoO discussion "

Edited June 27, 2006 by Kaftan Barlast

[MrBrown]

- doesnt make sense that somehow, time stops and allows you to attack a couple of extra times depending on what your enemies do.

Yes, well, turn-based systems involve this "time stop" thing in any case. I think you'd have to look at other advantages in a TB system than plausibility. Such as tactical choices.

 

Obviously, true realtime just doesn't work for PnP games. I think that if you want to go realistic and still retain playability in PnP RPG combat, you'd go with some kind of concurrent action system.

Edited June 28, 2006 by MrBrown

[J.E. Sawyer]

It was, and GURPS 4.0 would have certainly been a better choice than d20, but then again they could have simply made a PnP conversion of S.P.E.C.I.A.L. It's not like that hasn't been attempted before.

The system I wound up using for my version wasn't really much like SPECIAL, to be honest.

[aVENGER]

Heh, that's why I said "attempted" (j/k)

 

I really like your system because it essentially makes various calculating tasks easier for the players while still managing to retain most of the other defining aspects of SPECIAL. Somehow, I doubt that a full scale d20 conversion will manage to do the same.

[Judge Hades]

Depends if they make it classless or not.

[Lancer]

Fallout D20

 

*cries in disbelief*

 

OH HELL'S NO!!!. Say it's not true.

 

I pass. I think I will stick to TSR's original Gamma World setting.

[Lancer]

But then again, the old d6 system was even better.

This is where I stopped reading. It's all the proof I need that you will go to any lengths to further your personal crusade to bash the d20 system, even if it means making up stuff that you obviously know nothing about.

 

The d20 system is by no means perfect, and not my first choice for the Fallout world. But it does follow the KISS rule, where many others don't. And that is a must for fun.

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Ummm Numbers.. Speaking of KISS.. d6 is even easier to learn than d20. Much easier.

Edited June 29, 2006 by Lancer

[Judge Hades]

I prefer Darwins World.

[Judge Hades]

Ummm Numbers.. Speaking of KISS.. d6 is even easier to learn than d20. Much easier.

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I didn't like th old WEG d6 system. d20 I far better than that system and just as easy to learn.

[Lancer]

I prefer Darwins World. 

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I dislike anything 3e/d20. d20 Apocalypse also sux.

[Judge Hades]

Why? d20 System is pretty much the best role playing rules system I have ever dealt with. It is very versitile, easy to learn, detailed, and downright fun to play. I have used many systems from GURPS to FUZION and from Interlock to WEG's d6 System, and none of them hold a candle to the d20 System.