death rules

[astr0creep]

KotOR style for me. As long as somebody is alive, others can be revived.

I hated BG's death scheme. So frustrating.

[MrBrown]

"Total party wipeout".

 

It always annoyed me in many squad/group/party -based games how the death of one character/unit, a specific one or any, meant loss in combat.

[Dark_Raven]

This is so Obsidian can see what their TRUE fanboys (Obsidian board posters) think. I'd have done it on the BIO boards but they are evil and don't allow actual polls to easily keep track of stuff.

 

Enjoy.  :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am a Obsidian fangirl but if you are dead, you are dead. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

[Ellester]

I like the

[Walsingham]

I liked the way in BG that occasionally a party member would get completely banjo'ed into a gazillion wet chunks and be impossible to resurrect. Frustrating certainly, but not bad.

[astr0creep]

I liked the way in BG that occasionally a party member would get completely banjo'ed into a gazillion wet chunks and be impossible to resurrect. Frustrating certainly, but not bad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Certainly more "realistic".

[Hurlshort]

No, the D&D death rules (this whole wounded, unconscious system when you have 0 HP) are stupid. You die or you do not die. It should be as simple as that. If you die, you can always cast a ressurection spell or use a ressurection rod. But you SHOULD die when you reach 0. In my own p&p rules, a character falls unconscious when his HP gets between 0 and 10, after the opponent has striked him (the opponent must have the Deathblow feat to do so, however). Then, it is up to the opponent to finish up the character or leave him agonizing.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

How is a 0-10 unconscious rule different than a 0 to negative 10? There is still the chance that you will be hit for so much damage in D&D that you will die instantly. In real life, people tend to go unconscious or enter shock. Particularly with medieval weaponry, most people got injured and then bled to death.

[Magnum Opus]

I like the DnD Bleed and Die method, myself.

 

The examples given for BG and Torment... they worked well for those specific games in that there was a very solid story-related reason for handling death in the ways those game did. I'd have loathed BG's method of handling death in IWD, for instance.

 

Otherwise, though, the BG series seemed to me to be waffling between wanting to go with a Dead is Dead philosophy, and the regular Bleed and Die DnD method. 0hp in that game meant you were dead, but not Dead-dead, and resurrection was cheap enough, and accessible enough, that I felt the overall effect was quite similar to having an NPC falling unconscious in battle (ie. "dead"), only they didn't have a truly skill- or environment-based way of waking them up... not until you gained a bunch of levels, anyway, and they let you use your wake-up stick (rod of resurrection) or consume a spell slot or two with an Awaken spell (raise dead). It worked all right, but... not my personal preference. In battle, it still meant it was just a straight-up fight to the death, even if it wasn't death-death. You either survived or you didn't.

 

What I like about the Bleed and Die method is the variability and choice it presents me with. Do I stop fighting the monster I'm currently facing and try to bandage the bleeder to stop him from dying? Do I hope that his injuries aren't serious to cause him to bleed to death, that he'll stabilize on his own? What will it cost me to just stop fighting in the middle of battle and go all 4077 for a while? Adds a bit of drama to a battle, IMO, and presents me with situations that the now-requisite Bigger Monsters/More Power mechanism simply doesn't give me.

 

Besides, as mentioned, it allows for the use of skills other than those used in combat.

[Arkan]

I do not like this "total party wipeout" thing. WHY THE FRIG would they implement it like this? It was ok in KotOR, but it was never used that much...fights were too easy. I much prefer the BG style (basically the NWN style) where dying means something. Leave the TPO in the JRPGs please. kthxby

[Llyranor]

I much prefer the BG style (basically the NWN style) where dying means something.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, it doesn't.

 

lol rez

[Arkan]

I much prefer the BG style (basically the NWN style) where dying means something.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, it doesn't.

 

lol rez

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

lol rez? WTF does that mean? Resurrection? Keep in mind that it can be a hassle to carry your fallen comerade's loot to a temple and spend money (should be lots of mone) to have them brought back to life. Or to use up a precious spell slot for a resurrection spell. Or to reload and redo the whole fight. Death shouldn't just be a knockout.

[Kaftan Barlast]

The reason they do it like this is beause in a story that is very character-driven, a dead character means a lot of "If character X alive=false , then disable event 1,47,27,296,27,59,28..." work not to mention the horrible consequences it has on the story.

 

 

Imagine K2 without Kreiah "

[Volourn]

"KOTOR deaths make more sense when characters are very intertwined with the story."

 

Nah. Not if the writer makes effort to write.

 

All the PST npcs, and some of the BG2 npcs (most noteably Imoen) were important to the story but dead was dead for them. Of course, they cheated in PST and gave your character auto raises.

 

 

"Imagine K2 without Kreiah"

 

A better game? :D

 

 

Actually, in a character driven game, deaths hould be death espicially. Death would mean soemthing, and therefore characters would mean more. Life means nothing without the possibility of dying.

 

 

Edited May 23, 2006 by Volourn

[astr0creep]

Life means nothing without the possibility of dying.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What do you mean by "the possibility"?

 

Life is the process of dying.

 

"As soon as you are born, you are dying".

 

Death is inevitable.

 

And so on and so forth.

Edited May 23, 2006 by astr0creep

[alanschu]

"KOTOR deaths make more sense when characters are very intertwined with the story."

 

Nah. Not if the writer makes effort to write.

 

All the PST npcs, and some of the BG2 npcs (most noteably Imoen) were important to the story but dead was dead for them. Of course, they cheated in PST and gave your character auto raises.

 

Is it even possible for Imoen or Yoshimo to die while they still have things to do in the plot? I thought Yoshimo always disappeared after X damage. And Imoen is taken away from you right away....what happens if she dies in the prologue?

[Magnum Opus]

Imoen's the one who disappears if she takes too much damage in Irenicus' little hell hole. Yoshimo can die, though. If "the Coordinator" doesn't see him when you talk to him at Spellhold, he'll assume he's not with you and blather on about Saemon slipping a spell component into your soup while you were on his ship.

Edited May 23, 2006 by Magnum Opus

[Volourn]

"Is it even possible for Imoen or Yoshimo to die while they still have things to do in the plot? I thought Yoshimo always disappeared after X damage."

 

Yoshimo, cna die. IIRC, it's one of the ways one can cheat to bring him back. I never tried it though.

 

"And Imoen is taken away from you right away....what happens if she dies in the prologue?"

 

Hmm.. Long time ago, but BIo did cheat with her. I believe she runs away when reaches 0hp, and you next see her as you leave Irenicus' hideout. Don't quote me on that, it's been a long while. Not the ideal situation; but meh.

 

Still, I would prefer if BIO simply let her die, and find another reason for you to chase Irenicus: ie. He's trying to murder you and take your soul, lol. Good enough reason to go after someone, I think.

 

 

[Kaftan Barlast]

Actually, in a character driven game, deaths hould be death espicially. Death would mean soemthing, and therefore characters would mean more. Life means nothing without the possibility of dying.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Thats true, but its also necessary to ensure that the character goes out the right way, or the drama of it goes right down the drain.

 

 

Dying from an unlucky ratbite in some random sewer encounter isnt exactly going out in a blaze of glory "

[Volourn]

"Dying from an unlucky ratbite in some random sewer encounter isnt exactly going out in a blaze of glory"

 

Thems the breaks. Sometimes the least heroic death is the most heroic death of all.

[Ahkan Stormforge]

In BG series, the main character could not be resurrected: spawns of Bhaal who have a very high concentration of Bhaal's essence have their corporeal form disintegrate upon death, a la Sarevok. Therefore if YOU die once, it's over.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, that was just a story element they invented to explain why it was instant game over, it didn't really add anything to the story and they could have easily gone without it. IMO it would have been a better game if there wasn't instant game over upon the protagonist's death. That's all I'm saying.

 

Also, I think they still intend you to play the game from the POV of the protagonist: so that you as a player could be watching your party members die then resurrect them, but when the arrow hits you then the screen should go black.

 

But it's silly that no matter what, under no circumstances are your companions ever able to have you resurrected. There were plenty of times that I could have had the main PC resurrected on the next round after dying, why is this completely robbed from me?

[Hurlshort]

Thems the breaks. Sometimes the least heroic death is the most heroic death of all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That was the most innane comment you have ever made. That's pretty amazing, considering some of your other posts.

 

I don't think death should ever interfere with telling a good story.

[alanschu]

But it's silly that no matter what, under no circumstances are your companions ever able to have you resurrected. There were plenty of times that I could have had the main PC resurrected on the next round after dying, why is this completely robbed from me?

 

Because spawns of Bhaal who have a very high concentration of Bhaal's essence have their corporeal form disintegrate upon death.

[StillLife]

I liked the BG2 method. Even better was JA2. Having your mercs say their final words and your parties reaction to their deaths was a great touch. Though you had a large number potential replacements available in that game, which a typical party-based RPG lacks.

 

Video games need to go back to kicking player's asses and stop with the hand-holding. If you have to reload - too bad, losing should suck.

[Volourn]

These are NOT books. These are games.

 

You might as well cut out combat completely, have no reload button, and have the game control the PC's choices... afterall, don't want anything to intervere in the story, right?

 

The whole point of writing a story for a game instead of a novel or a movie is that you should try to make the story work with the game.

 

Period.

 

 

"That was the most innane comment you have ever made."

 

That post of yours is the most innane post you have ever made. Trying to a novel written instead of agame with a good story amde.

 

If I wanna buy a book, I'll buy a book.

 

Good stories in a agme are essential; but we shouldn't forget that it's a game.

 

Game over.

[Llyranor]

Making death meaningless by making it temporary makes for good gaming.