NWN2 only 20 hours long?

[Monte Carlo]

Twenty hours isn't very good value for money for a CRPG. Period.

 

However, I might be tempted to play smaller, more focussed multiplay sessions of it. PWs don't bother me. Especially ones that ask you to effectively join a cult to understand the story/ download the hakpaks/ obey the egomaniacal creator's Utter Vision of Gamer Perfection. Nope, a small but perfect adventure with three or four other folks for an hour-and-a-half and back to the character vault for another week.

 

I won't be buying straight away. I'll wait on it. Games Developers hype their projects: it's their job, I don't blame them for it, it doesn't especially trouble me but it doesn't mean that I fall for it.

[Hurlshort]

Doesn't anyone here remember that the OC of NWN is only one aspect of the game? It's not like other RPG's. I spent maybe 15 hours on the NWN OC, but I played NWN for at least 300 hours total. The mod community makes this game special. NWN2 just needs a kick butt toolset and I'll be happy.

[Archmonarch]

To get back to the JE comparison, despite what Volourn may believe in his deluded little world, Jade Empire was definitely less than 20 hours. With completing every sidequest eligible for my alignment, beating every level of the flying minigame, and beating the game, I clocked in at around 18 hours. And no I didnt use Iron Golem style.

 

While I consider that ultimately too short, that wasnt the main problem with the game. The plot was formulaic, too heavily foreshadowed, and easily predictable. The characters were stock cliches: the insane inventor, the reformed bad guy with a regretted past, the good guy who turns out to be evil, the spoiled princess that wants more, etc. Combat was simplistic and there was not enough differences between various styles to make a point in switching. The only terrific thing about the game was the setting.

 

I like Bioware overall, but felt they really dropped the ball on this one. My point in all this is that while I hope the length estimation of 20 hrs for NWN2 is a mistake or maybe covers only the main quest, unless the rest of the content is there, the length is really only a minor point. I trust Obsidian to deliver that, and that trust may end up being misplaced. But none of us will know until the game is released.

 

Try waiting until you get the finished product in front of you before bashing it.

[Atreides]

I like deluded little worlds when they are fun and nice. Not like North Korea though.

[Llyranor]

Heh, unless NWN2 doesn't actually *work* or something, it's already virtually guaranteed more playability than every other RPG I've ever played (probably combined). I love modding, and the features they're adding on the end are frankly very cool. Lasting value isn't even an issue in this case.

 

People argue that 20 hrs isn't enough to have emotions conveyed in order to feel satisfied with the product. How many movies can you fit into that? How many novels? You can throw in complete TV series within that timeframe. I've seen many fully satisfying Wuxia or anime series that would have been too long had they been extended over 20 hrs. Were they more satisfying than BG2? NWN1's OC? You bet. There was more story packed into them in lesser time, and the stories were complete and more satisfying.

 

'lol different mediums you suck i mean YOU SUCK'

 

Needing 'longer times' to convey those emotions and provide completeness of story is a crutch. "Hmm, the story isn't long enough. I know, let's add another chapter where you fight off MORE time-travelling lizards! We'll add a few lines of text here and there to involve the player more! Brilliant!" Maybe you guys are satisfied with the current gaming conventions, but I'm not. It doesn't matter if the game is 20 hrs or 60, if those conventions still apply. The relative lack of emotional portrayal is there, replaced instead by REPETITIVE gameplay, rather than gameplay that would be rarer, yet more unique and actually RELEVANT. I don't feel any satisfaction in wiping out an ENTIRE building of every living piece of crap in there, just for the principle of 'more gameplay'.

 

Look at those longer games. BG2 was a linear romp. NWN1, linear romp. Morrowind, Oblivion, linear story. Arcanum, linear quest. KOTORs, linear. Having the 'choice' of choosing your planet isn't really a meaningful choice. Choice implies consequence. So much for the roleplaying greats. You can create an illusion of nonlinearity by having 'lots of things to do with the world', but you're still a pawn of linearity.

 

If 20 hrs means that more design development time is spent on increasing the breadth in the INTERACTIVE storytelling/roleplaying experience, all the better. If not, too bad, it would still fall victim to the current genre conventions - in which case, it would stop mattering how long the game would be, anyway. The point is one of completeness of experience, and if the design team is unable to convey that in 20 hrs, they wouldn't have been able to do it in 60 hrs either.

 

Some people complain about JE being too short to be able to do that. I didn't play it yet, but BG1+2 didn't manage to really involve me in emotionally, either, and I clocked in 150+ hrs for those. Sucky design is still sucky design. If you like the illusion of having a 'deeper' experience because it's longer, I guess that's fine too.

[Atreides]

It's also possible that game time's been condensed because things load faster (remember "Insert CD4") and meaningless treking across multiple maps has been cut for better gameplay.

 

I'm not going out of my way to cover Obsidian. These reasons and probably more are independent of actual content (the latter was a mechanic rather than real content) and shoudln't be ignored when comparing new with the old sdtuff. Things change as time goes on.

[Hassat Hunter]

Comparing a video-game with any other medium and then expect the same time of gameplay is kind of weird. Do you REALLY wan't to play a 45-min game, the avarage time of a TV-show? Are you happy when you played Call of Duty or Medal of Honor or whatever if the landing scene was done in 15 minutes, and the entire game in 1.5?

 

It is just a fact that games should last longer than many of the things you mentioned, unless you rather have the game devs make a similar design of 45 min "episodes" of games and then selling these every week... a sort of even worse design than Half-Life2's Episode bull...

 

Llyranor you have an awfull lot of faith that IF there is really 20 hours (that, with the current wordchoice of Feargus I doubt) there will be no "filler". Fact is you CANNOT make a game without that if you wan't to have quality. Would you like it if you barely kill a Goblin and then 10 min later have no trouble ending the life of a Dragon? "Filler" is also part of a game that makes the game good; remove it and all you have remaining might be the important stuff but it will be bland and inconsistent without the filler. Not a single game EVER created has proven me that this is possible otherwise.

 

And then you come with "I don't feel any satisfaction in wiping out an ENTIRE building of every living piece of crap in there". Might I point you out what OE did with the Jekk Jekk Tar? And it was fun too!

 

No, if there is 20 hours, it will be 20 hours with the filler, and thus WAY too short for any decent story/immersion/fullfillment

[Llyranor]

Yeah, only 20 hrs has a lot more room for leeway than 45 min. How much content or breadth do you think you can pack into 20 hrs? Unless they cut dev time way down (and IIRC, NWN2 dev time is more or less similar to BG2), then all that design work goes into that time. Would Fallout have been more satisfying if it was 40 hrs long and had a lot of random dungeons throughout that provided little more than more opportunities for combat? Filler comes in many sizes and shapes. That's when game length and development time intertwine. Let's recap here: 1) Dev time similar to BG2; 2) Story and writing are ALREADY complete.

 

You mentioned Call of Duty. That game got me more involved emotionally in less than 10 hrs than BG ever managed in 150+ hrs. Did length play a part? BG wouldn't have got me involved if it was 20 hrs or 300.

[Hurlshort]

Actually, some of my most satisfying NWN moments came from hour long mods. Particularly the episodic ones, they can be directly compared to a TV show because not only are they free, but they rarely go over a couple hours in length.

 

I would love to see more of these shorter games, but of course the financial model would need to change. This might actually open games up to more people. Let's face it, many folks don't play games because of the time commitment. The majority of human beings on our planet don't have 100 hours to put into a medium they are unfamiliar with. Short games are a great way to hook new audiences.

 

Of course you aren't going to spend $50 on a few hour long episodes, but NWN is offering unlimited access to these episodes for $50. That's a great deal to me.

[Hassat Hunter]

Dev Time CAN go to waste...

 

Duke Nukem Forever

Daikatana

Freelancer

S.T.A.L.K.E.R

 

just to mention a few...

Edited April 23, 2006 by Hassat Hunter

[Llyranor]

Regardless of whether the game is 5 or 80 hrs long.

[Hassat Hunter]

Indeed. But that means that (even with an as long dev time as BG2) you cannot state that they have put the best of the best in that 20 hours...

 

(Repeat: IF it is 20 hours)

[Llyranor]

If there is wasted dev time, and it was spread across 40 hrs, then it would just have been the same lacking content diluted throughout a longer time. I don't see the point.

[Hassat Hunter]

Point is there is no reason to know IF they took their time to make a appropriate 40 hours campaign, or even a 20 hours.

 

And if that is unknown and you look at most current RPG's (30-40) hours while they also have good quality one CANNOT be pleased by "just" 20 hours of play...

 

The longer the better. I rather have 40 hours of 30 hours 9 content and 10 hours 7.5 content than 20 hours of 9.5 content... but that can be me...

Edited April 23, 2006 by Hassat Hunter

[kirottu]

If there is wasted dev time, and it was spread across 40 hrs, then it would just have been the same lacking content diluted throughout a longer time. I don't see the point.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Think it like this: Obsidian is your girlfriend and game is sex. Longer time = better. "

Edited April 23, 2006 by kirottu

[Llyranor]

Only if you want to make the assumption that most current RPGs with their 30-40 hrs have 'good quality'. You might, but I'm not.

[Hassat Hunter]

If you think the current 30-40 hours not good, why would you expect OE can do way better in a shorter period of time?

 

Main question is: WHY do you think the 30-40 are not good... do you really find the additional 10 hours of content is hurting a game, even if that prevents "PS:T type of gameplay" that can make a game like 10 hours chatting, 5 hours combat, 10 hours chatting, 20 hours combat and thus utterly "when does the chatting (when in combat) or when does the fighting starts (after loads of chatting)"?

[Llyranor]

It has nothing to do with length. It's about the design. I have no problems with a 200-hr game with excellent design throughout. "10 hours chatting, 5 hours combat, 10 hours chatting, 20 hours combat" is bad design, and precisely how people can multiply a game's length by adding 'content' that really is just an afterthought. Arbitrary segmentation of the game into 'story/roleplaying' and 'gameplay/combat' elements is bad. That's where the 'let's add more combat, add another dungeon!' comes in. Their relative mutual exclusion comes through as outdated. Does the story suddenly stop because you enter a 'dungeon', or is it because design dictates that area as filler? The ultimate culprit is lazy design, regardless of the game's length. A projected length (whether false or not) doesn't show anything about the quality of the design.

 

If the game is 20 hrs and shows better *consistent* design than what the genre currently offers, then it wins in my book. If it doesn't, then it has already lost, in which case I could care less if it's 20 or 40 hrs. It could still be enjoyable, but then all that'd matter is that I'd feel the game provided a complete experience. Would I want a 40-hr game with consistently good design? Sure, I'd want a 500-hr one, and I want Patrick Steward and awesome soil erosion and next-gen graphics and a full orchestra and top-notch writers too. People always want more, but people don't matter.

 

Would you rather play through 20-hr FO, or 60-hr POR2?

 

And hey, I'll admit my point of view is influenced by the fact that (if it works, of course), NWN2 is already virtually guaranteed more lasting value than all CRPGs I've played before even if it had NO campaign.

 

Would I be happy with a singleplayer-only 20 hr CRPG? Given CURRENT design? No, but that'd have more to do with trying to compensate relative lack of quality with quantity. It might fill you up temporarily, but you get hungry again soon after. In a way, if the industry trends are aiming for shorter games (you can debate how packed they'll be, but meh), then in a sense the console trend is almost a good thing. 'Rental' games have their appeal, in a way.

[Guard Dog]

At the risk of reopening a 2 yr argument with Volurn, the 40 hr NWN1 campaign was really little more than a showcase of game content. The story ranged from all around bad at it's worst to simply uncompelling at it's best. The dialouge and charaters were poorly done. Obsidan's writing teams have produced some of the best charaters in any CRPG both at Obsidian and in other endeavors. In fact that was KOTOR2's only saving grace. I'd sooner take a 20 hour game that was complete and well fleshed out with good dialouge, characterization, and roleplaying elements, that a 40 hour game that brings back memories of the NWN OC.

 

As another poster pointed out, NWN is really about the toolset. If the OC is a five hour hack and slash "fed ex" quest, I'd still buy the game for the toolset. And so should all of you. Heck I've got my first module laid out on over 120 pages of notes and I'll probably have at least 10 hours into building it before I even make my first OC character. If the OC stinks, maybe you'll like my mod better. If not then you can be certain there will be many and more some of which will surpass "professional" quality, just like NWN1.

 

There are over 5000 modules on the NWN vault and granted, only 5% could credibly be called good. That is still 250 at an average of 2 hours a piece. You do the math.

 

Mr Sawyer, you give us a complete, reletively bug free game with a working toolset and I'll be happy. If the OC happens to be good, thats just the icing on the cake.

[Volourn]

Who are you, and why do you think you are important to me?

[10k fists]

20 hours seems short for a standard RPG. Hell, even Too Human is being targeted for 20-25 hours, and it's a RPG/action game hybrid.

[Darque]

Doesn't anyone here remember that the OC of NWN is only one aspect of the game?  It's not like other RPG's.  I spent maybe 15 hours on the NWN OC, but I played NWN for at least 300 hours total.  The mod community makes this game special.  NWN2 just needs a kick butt toolset and I'll be happy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's a horrible way of looking at things.

 

It's like saying it's ok for developers to be lazy and take your money because other people will mod the game (to make it playable) for free.

[Gromnir]

Also, Grom, not buying their game will cause them to go out of business, which means they cannot try again. So if I wanted to help Obsidian make better games, not buying their games is an ineffective way to do so. I am not proposing something else, but I am criticizing your method of making companies give better games.

 

Wait, weren't you the one who rallied all the Troika fans to not buy the company's games? Hades had better not find out about this...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

this kinda thing is why you people keep getting less from game developers and publishers. if you all complains 'bout game length after you buys it, then how much you thinks a publisher is gonna be motivated to makes longer games in the future? what motivation has you offered a publisher who knows that you is gonna buy any obsidian product regardless of your concerns? for chrissakes, even the obsidian developers is gonna tell you that game development and publishing is held hostage by the Quarterly Report mentality that pervades many industries... which is why so many games gets rushed to release just before the end of a quarter. the publishers know that half-baked game is gonna gets some negative feedback, but they would rather see the sales numbers on the qurterly report than they is concerned by negative feedback from fans who proves over and over again that they will buy shorter games and buggy games.

 

btw, you do give us too much credit... but we wish that troika's death were our fault. when a company so woeful at the business of making games goes under, we all benefit. looks at obsidian. how many former troikanauts they got on staff? whatever talent troika had at making games has not been lost... those folks is still making games in other places, but the development company that mismangaed that talent is no longer wasting consumer or publisher dollars... which is how the gosh darned system is 'posed to work.

 

this same damned issue cames up right after toee were released, and it were a buggy mess. Gromnir pointed out that if people really didn't wants buggy games from troika or atari or any other developer, then they should sends a message in dollars: don't buy games on day 1 of release. if peoples stoped buying games until first patch is released, then publishers and developers would work lots harder to gets less buggy games made... 'cause the lack o' initial sales would speaks loudly to publishers... and in spite of blank reservations, more than a few bis and bio and other developers agreed with us that such actions were the most likely to brings 'bout actual change. on-line petitions is useless, and emails is almost as bad. real letters gets some little better impact, but dollars speak loudest.

 

lly reasoning is still absent. 'course even he is now admitting that there ain't no reason to expect that a shorter game will have less fluff, so there sure ain't no reason to expect that nwn2 will be better 'cause it is shorter than any pc crpg we can recalls since HoW. at the very least we can all agree that there is no reason to be encouraged by the reduction in hours. however, lly does takes the odd pov and suggests that length is a non-factor.

 

strange. again, one of the main reasons why people still seems enamored with bg2 is simply 'cause of its size. no single tangential quest may have been as involved as even durlag's tower from totsc, but bg2 had many quasi-durlag quests that a player coulds pick and choose to do at their leisure... planar sphere and druids grove and windspear hills and unseeing eye and numerous others. reduce the number of those tangential side quests to 1 or 2 and ask if People (that is People with the big P rather than Gromnir or lly or vol or vis,) would honestly be 'membering bg2 with such fondness.

 

am recalling a review for some soon to be released adventure game were posted at gamespot and linked to this board. the reviewer seemed to likes the game a great deal... but he noted that it should have been longer.

 

all things being equal, size (up to a point,) is a positive attribute for a game, and while we not need a game to be 80 hours to enjoy, we thinks that there shoulds be some kinda minimum we is willing to accept from a pc crpg. personally, we is gonna set the basment at 'round 30 hours... 'cause we cant sees how a crpg can offers an intro, critical path, conclusion and tangential side-quests that is gonna satisfy with less than 30 hours of gameplay.

 

...

 

also, while it probably ain't the case, Gromnir would not be surprised if ferret jumped ship just 'fore the real story of nwn2 gots out... got out just 'fore any of the taint could stick to him. reduce mp fetures to gives a bigger and more fulfilling sp campaign makes sense... but to reduce those features and makes a game that were half as long as the rushed kotor2 product that obsidian released only a little while ago? looks like one of those conspiracy theory things that kinda likes mushrooms grows best in darkness and bs, but...

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited April 23, 2006 by Gromnir

[Darque]

this same damned issue cames up right after toee were released, and it were a buggy mess.  Gromnir pointed out that if people really didn't wants buggy games from troika or atari or any other developer, then they should sends a message in dollars: don't buy games on day 1 of release.  if peoples stoped buying games until first patch is released, then publishers and developers would work lots harder to gets less buggy games made... 'cause the lack o' initial sales would speaks loudly to publishers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Amen!

 

I kinda wonder now if it's those above Obsidz management that are causing the problem in this case... I mean you'd think they'd have learned from K2.

[kirottu]

makes a game that were half as long as the rushed kotor2 product that obsidian released only a little while ago?  looks like one of those conspiracy theory things that kinda likes mushrooms grows best in darkness and bs, but...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not to mention that some Obsidian dev said they have larger single player team working on NWN 2 than Bioware had in NWN. Strange times it is.

 

BTW, shortest RPG that I have played was Fable on friends Xbox. 10+ hours.