Scaling.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

It is true, if you want to be a gimp who doesn't drink potions, use ingredients or use any magic items you can.  The game will just be REALLY tough.

 

Go try to play a fighter in BG2 without using any magic items, or drinking any potions.  See how tough it is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

BG2 had enough placed gear that the item creation was a bonus not a requirement. Thats good games design in my book. If I dont pick up the shiny sword of chopping, thats my problem. But if the shiny sword of chopping only appears due to luck and not having it hikes the difficulty significantly. Thats poor games design.

 

You fully admit that the only way to collect sigil stones easily is to cast invisibility (or chameleon too I expect,which is how I got the final gate in under 10 minutes).

But thats advanced magic. So you need advanced magic in order for your fighter to be able to collect stones without leveling...

 

You dont see that as a design flaw ?

[Hassat Hunter]

On the subject of "leveling up with 10 skill levels"; why can't you guys just mix MW's Skill system with Dungeon Siege's Stat system. From that moment on ALL is "leveling with doing"... Wouldn't be that hard to do seeing all skills already have stats attached to them, they just need to have a similar bar as the skills then... who level slower and with multiple skill doings...

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

On the subject of "leveling up with 10 skill levels"; why can't you guys just mix MW's Skill system with Dungeon Siege's Stat system. From that moment on ALL is "leveling with doing"... Wouldn't be that hard to do seeing all skills already have stats attached to them, they just need to have a similar bar as the skills then... who level slower and with multiple skill doings...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't recall how that one worked.

 

The problem is that some skill sets are just too prone to leveling. Take my first character.

 

Hand to Hand -

Blades -

Heavy Armour -

Restoration -

Armourer -

Marksman -

Alteration -

 

If you look at the first five skills and the synergy they have you can see why the character levels up so quickly. Quite easy to go up two or three levels in the same dungeon. It also means that because of the scaling and the luck factor in the game by the time you find what you "need" it's likely to already be obsolete.

[Hassat Hunter]

I don't recall how that one worked.

 

Melee combat raises Strenght most, then Dexterity, then Int

Ranged raises Dex. most, then Int/Str. almost equal

Magic raises Int most, then Dex., then Str (minor alteration from what type of magic, but that is irrelevant in this case)

 

So why can't Oblivion do;

Melee fighting +Str and Endurance

Ranged/Stealth fighting +Agility and Speed

Merchantery and Speechcraft +Personality

Magic +Willpower and +Intelligence

Luck will raise on a different way (maybe like GTA:SA does it... collecting those things in Las Venturas)

 

Almost the same way it does right now, but then it will not give +X at leveling, but just gives the levels...

Edited April 4, 2006 by Hassat Hunter

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I don't recall how that one worked.

 

Melee combat raises Strenght most, then Dexterity, then Int

Ranged raises Dex. most, then Int/Str. almost equal

Magic raises Int most, then Dex., then Str (minor alteration from what type of magic, but that is irrelivant in this case)

 

So why can't oblivion do;

Melee fighting +Str and endurance

Ranged/Stealth fighting +Agility and speed

Merchantery and Speechcraft +Personality

Magic +Willpower and +Intelligence

Luck will raise on a different way (maybe like GTA:SA does it... collecting those things in Las Venturas)

 

Almost the same way it does right now, but then it will not give +X at leveling, but just gives the levels...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well I think getting rid of levels entirely would help then it really would be learn by doing in the true sense (like FFII). ShadowStrider isnt a big fan of levels either.

 

Stats would raise by the associated skills, just at a more moderate pace. Getting hit would raise your health and using mana would raise your mana pool.

[Gromnir]

So let me get this straight, I'm being defensive when I say people are having a bad time because they're not taking full advantage of the things the game was made for.

 

A warrior going through the whole game without making magic items is like a wizard going through and never buying any new spells... yet I'm the one being stubborn.  In D&D, if a wizard or a warrior didn't have magic gear at level 20, guess what happens?  Or if a wizard doesn't have enough spells?

 

Sorry Gromnir, but you're just taking the "he's a developer route" out, you're the one being stubborn.  You're reallying grasping for straws now.  Where the hell did I say there was "no bad combat builds?"

 

Picking up blade, light armor, and a bunch of spell schools but never using any spells in combat, or buy new spells, or crafting new magic items would gimp you pretty bad.  It still wouldn't be unplayable, but it would be a pain in the ass.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

*sigh*

 

 

making magic weapons is neither intuitive nor explained well in game... and as shadow paladin has pointed out, it depends on luck or pre-knowledge of mage guilds and sigil stones and particular reusable soul gems to makes useable... which is that whole metagamy thing you were complaining 'bout.

 

sorry chum, but you just don't get it. whether you thinks people is being stoopid or unreasonable is pointless. you ain't gonna make it as a developer with that attitude. you takes your audience as you find 'em, and you develop games for 'em. you make game so that a signifficant % of people don't get magic item creation, and magic item creation is necessary, then you has failed as a developer... period.

 

however, this should be obvious, and you has not seemed particularly dumb in past, so we assume your inability to grasp simple stuff is loyalty based... give you benefit of doubt.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Dhruin]

I've fiddled with a mage and fighter but played mostly with a ranged thief, who is having a hard time. I only skimmed the tiny enchanting part of the manual for that reason. Do I read that right? My thief should enchant weapons and to do that, has to join the Mages Guild?

[Shadowstrider]

I've fiddled with a mage and fighter but played mostly with a ranged thief, who is having a hard time.  I only skimmed the tiny enchanting part of the manual for that reason.  Do I read that right?  My thief should enchant weapons and to do that, has to join the Mages Guild?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Maybe I should just go ahead and put it in my signature, but the mage's guild is not the only way to enchant items. You can use sigil stones.

[Pidesco]

Don't you need a high enchant skill to properly enchant items? And if so, what's a pure fighter doing with a high enchant skill?

[Llyranor]

Hmm, I never needed to enchant any of my items, I found enough of them lying around (from important NPCs/bosses, I guess).

[Dhruin]

Maybe I should just go ahead and put it in my signature, but the mage's guild is not the only way to enchant items.  You can use sigil stones.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

My error. Not being interested in enchanting until you pointed out its importance, I hadn't looked into it. The manual has one line on the subject of sigil stones, which I overlooked.

 

Actually, I think that's enough for me.

[Shadowstrider]

Maybe I should just go ahead and put it in my signature, but the mage's guild is not the only way to enchant items.  You can use sigil stones.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

My error. Not being interested in enchanting until you pointed out its importance, I hadn't looked into it. The manual has one line on the subject of sigil stones, which I overlooked.

 

Actually, I think that's enough for me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It isn't really important, unless you're playing a character who casts no spells or use scrolls.

 

You said you play a sneaky character, the illusion school not only makes life easier for a sneaky character, it can greatly increase the overall effectiveness of combat.

 

That said, I know the pains of a sneak all to well. My first character was a magic-less sneak and I regretted that decision soon. Very difficult to win a battle, but not impossible as some here would have people believe.

[metadigital]

It is true, if you want to be a gimp who doesn't drink potions, use ingredients or use any magic items you can.  The game will just be REALLY tough.

 

Go try to play a fighter in BG2 without using any magic items, or drinking any potions.  See how tough it is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

BG2 had enough placed gear that the item creation was a bonus not a requirement. Thats good games design in my book. If I dont pick up the shiny sword of chopping, thats my problem. But if the shiny sword of chopping only appears due to luck and not having it hikes the difficulty significantly. Thats poor games design.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shadowpaladin, meet reality:

Hmm, I never needed to enchant any of my items, I found enough of them lying around (from important NPCs/bosses, I guess).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ditto for me, too.

 

Also, I would add, that my current character is level 9, about to be 10. I have since experimented with the level up mechanic: the bonuses are allocated as the PC gains a particular level, so there is no reason to not level (i.e. levelling up stats only counts towards the current major level that the PC is gaining). Except if you want to continually beat up rats with your steel sword, because rats are always level one.

 

I have not noticed the game getting proportionately more difficult, either. It has remarkably stayed almost exactly the same as my PC has levelled up.

 

Can't say fairer than that.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Shadowpaladin, meet reality:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thats not reality thats luck.

 

Want an example ?

 

My new character closes the first gate at level 2 finds a sigil stone which makes an 18 damage weapon with 80 charges. You want a laughably easy game ? You got it.

 

My previous character didnt find a weapon like that till someway into the main plot and after having had to take on Kvatch. At which point he was something like level 15 or 16.

[Tigranes]

SS: How does charm work? For example, I have a spell that says "24 points of charm for 30 seconds". I don't know what the points mean, so I tried casting Charm about 30 times at a rat..Nothing doing. and Command Humanoid/Creature types often have too low a level cap so my enemies are immune.

 

It's just that I'm level 19 and illusion (my major skill) is sitll at like the 30s, the only useful spells in the school I see are Invisibility / Paralyse that both require at least Journeyman.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

SS: How does charm work? For example, I have a spell that says "24 points of charm for 30 seconds". I don't know what the points mean, so I tried casting Charm about 30 times at a rat..Nothing doing. and Command Humanoid/Creature types often have too low a level cap so my enemies are immune.

 

It's just that I'm level 19 and illusion (my major skill) is sitll at like the 30s, the only useful spells in the school I see are Invisibility / Paralyse that both require at least Journeyman.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm pretty sure the points are how many bonus points to the disposition you get.

 

So if someone is on 50 and you hit them with a 20 point charm they will be at 70.

My experiences of being a vampire seem to back that up (since people were quite reluctant to talk before being charmed).

[mkreku]

By the way, let me just add that leveling does not make you weaker relative to your enemies. I am level 44 now and I can sneak-kill most Dremora mages in one swing of the sword, I run through the other Dremore lords like no tomorrow and nothing so far is able to stop me. I hit a rough spot somewhere around level 20, but since then it's been all good. I keep getting better and better stuff (found an amulet that returns 33% of all damage done to me back to the attacker!), my skills keep growing slowly and I am gathering piles of sigil stones. The only thing I lack is a decent weapon. I am still using an unenchanted Daedric longsword, because I hate having weapons that have to be recharged after every second battle. I'm hoping I'll find some sort of weapon that has a permanent effect instead, but it seems my hope has so far been in vain.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

By the way, let me just add that leveling does not make you weaker relative to your enemies. I am level 44 now and I can sneak-kill most Dremora mages in one swing of the sword, I run through the other Dremore lords like no tomorrow and nothing so far is able to stop me. I hit a rough spot somewhere around level 20, but since then it's been all good. I keep getting better and better stuff (found an amulet that returns 33% of all damage done to me back to the attacker!), my skills keep growing slowly and I am gathering piles of sigil stones. The only thing I lack is a decent weapon. I am still using an unenchanted Daedric longsword, because I hate having weapons that have to be recharged after every second battle. I'm hoping I'll find some sort of weapon that has a permanent effect instead, but it seems my hope has so far been in vain.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Some creatures have a maximum level. I read somewhere over on the TES board that after a while nothing new appears as an "upgrade". Don't know if that is what you are encountering or not but it sounds likely.

 

I'm not sure any weapons have permenant effects. But surely you can afford to carry around a couple of 100 grand soul stones by now ?

[mkreku]

I read in one of the help-loading screens that there's supposed to be some kind of "varla" stones in Ayleid shrines that can recharge weapons. Has anyone found any of those? I've found waylaid stones.. uh something like that, but those only recharge your mana. Did anyone found varla stones..?

[Hassat Hunter]

Yes. Right one in my first ruin (lvl 3/4)

[Tigranes]

Oh, wait. So Charm isn't like D&D Charm, it's like D&D Friends spell?

 

.....buggers. Well the Command spells are useless unless you have super-high illusion, which I would garner you somehow gain by casting "Command Level 2 Creatures" all the time.

 

Anyway, the game seems to devolve into a familiar Do Quests / Do Dungeons, come back to spend 5000 gold recharging magical equipment, have some money left over for other stuff. The Dark Brotherhood quests are really nice though, and some of the others.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I read in one of the help-loading screens that there's supposed to be some kind of "varla" stones in Ayleid shrines that can recharge weapons. Has anyone found any of those? I've found waylaid stones.. uh something like that, but those only recharge your mana. Did anyone found varla stones..?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Found a few of those. There is definately one somewhere along the plot route.

 

BTW have you finished the plot yet ?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Oh, wait. So Charm isn't like D&D Charm, it's like D&D Friends spell?

 

.....buggers. Well the Command spells are useless unless you have super-high illusion, which I would garner you somehow gain by casting "Command Level 2 Creatures" all the time.

 

Anyway, the game seems to devolve into a familiar Do Quests / Do Dungeons, come back to spend 5000 gold recharging magical equipment, have some money left over for other stuff. The Dark Brotherhood quests are really nice though, and some of the others.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think so. At least thats how I've been using them.

 

Training tip

you can cast anything on your own conjured creatures for spell practice

 

 

Not much experience with the illusion school myself.

 

I never paid to have anything recharged. I'll tell you how but only if you really want to know since I found it a pretty gamebreaking thing.

[mkreku]

Nope. I am doing mage guild quests right now. I stopped the main quest somewhere after

getting all the towns to send help to Bruma.. I am supposed to go find an armour in Sancre Tor (spelling?) but I've been busy closing random Oblivion gates and doing request for the mage council.

 

 

Does anyone know how many Oblivion gates there are in total? I've closed 20+ gates by now but I keep finding more everywhere.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Nope. I am doing mage guild quests right now. I stopped the main quest somewhere after

getting all the towns to send help to Bruma.. I am supposed to go find an armour in Sancre Tor (spelling?) but I've been busy closing random Oblivion gates and doing request for the mage council.

 

 

Does anyone know how many Oblivion gates there are in total? I've closed 20+ gates by now but I keep finding more everywhere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well you should stumble across a varla stone before long.

 

I think they just keep popping up except for the ones related to towns.