Scaling.

[Hassat Hunter]

If you play "like you want" and pick the right skills, the system works fine.

 

That's what I do. But catch: It doesn't work fine that way...

 

If you pick block, blade/blunt, heavy armor and engage in melee the game  isn't terribly difficult.

 

Unless you gained some levels in town with merchant/talking activities <_<

 

User error.  The combat is challenging, but I can't recall a single "I'm completely overpowered by 1 opponent" issues in the latest build.

 

So when I was able to pawn every Skeleton at lvl 4 with ease (read: 9/10 health left) and then not when I am lvl 11 (read: 1/50th health left) is a "user error" (EDIT: Additional Note; when fighting the lvl 4 I had Defense 10 and when fighting at lvl11 I had defense 23). The amount of time I have to wait after fight X to gain enough health for the next fight is pretty annoying. Especially seeing there is so much to fight. More than 2 Melee enemies (Mountain lion and a rat) are enough to kill my fully healed, armed and armored Khajiit. Reason: When I kill the rat the Mountain lion got a free attack... meaning bye bye 1/3th of my health

 

Especially annoying is that (seemingly) enemies who block don't get damaged but if you hit one of their shields you are disabled for a few seconds. Altough if the Player blocks he gets damaged... AND has a few seconds disablement This usually results in trying to button-mash as fast as possible when the screen doesn't shake all over... but then Human/Skeleton enemies always have their shield up. And when not you need 50+ hits to kill them. Guess I need a better blade... but guess what; I don't get one! Sigh. Also nice to mention how much time I spend searching the weapon/shield of deceased enemies just to note they have a 2 attack thingie... Then how could you beat me around like that!! Grumble...

(PS. Hated that physical weapon flying since I met it in DX:IW; where I had to kill a helipad of enemies with a machinegun. I tell you; all the equiped grenades/med packs/weapons/ammo were spread all over the entire level <_< and it was NOT fun searching for all the stuff)

 

EDIT; Now I am going on about the physics system already... why not add the fact that bodies have such a huge "selection box" and cannot be removed or moved on a normal way (Z). I found a pile of of dead skulls, with inbetween money, weapons and potions I would love to have. I had to spend 15 min bashing the bodies with my sword before I could grab all the weapons (had I only knew before the weapons lying there were useless... but that didn't show *sigh* because all it was was "Remains"), potions and 50% of the gold coins...

Edited April 2, 2006 by Hassat Hunter

[Musopticon?]

Umm...Wookiecookie, why do want to hate this game?

[Hassat Hunter]

I don't wan't to... I just do

[Musopticon?]

Moaning on forums really isn't the anwer. Just pick another game and chill.

[metadigital]

I made the mistake of treating Oblivion like it was a real CRPG...  I made a Sneaky, diplomatic spell caster... and well, towards level 20 almost everything I invested time in became useless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Imagine everything is backwards. Minor in skills you use all the time and major in skills you hardly ever use. :D

 

That way you level up really slowly, but maximise your levels. Another way is to do what I am doing which is to level up when you feel things are getting easy. Although breaking a couple of gates and making yourself a couple of vampiric weapons will have the same effect.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OR level up when you complete a goal, rather than as soon as one of your primary attibutes clicks over and the PC is eligible.

 

Think of it as a brake: a disincentive to level fast, so that the system is working to help the player enjoy the gameplay, rather than obsessively and compulsively ticking over a little number on the stat screen.

[metadigital]

I have never enjoyed any game with difficulty scaling that wasn't by user choice.  If I played F2 and areas like SAD scaled to an easier level of difficulty because I stumbled across it at 5th level, I would be pretty disappointed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's a tough call, though.

 

Bethesda obviously prioritized wanderlust above over-achievement in their design phase, and Oblivion is the result. By that I mean the ability to play in the sandbox, to go and do any quest at any time is a fundamental design decision that was taken before a line of code was written.

 

The scaling isn't perfect, but what is? I can see the people on the fringes gnashing their teeth because it wasn't quite enough like Dungeon Seige for them to bemoan Oblivion as a clickfest in that image, too.

 

I think the simplest way to fix/play the game best is to level up a lot less often than the PC is eligible: after a plot point, say, and only ever one level at a time.

 

A lot of the complaints are players who have worked out how to metagame (even by accident) and are complaining that they can ... like a fat kid suing the cookie company for making the baking products too tasty!

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Especially annoying is that (seemingly) enemies who block don't get damaged but if you hit one of their shields you are disabled for a few seconds. Altough if the Player blocks he gets damaged... AND has a few seconds disablement This usually results in trying to button-mash as fast as possible when the screen doesn't shake all over... but then Human/Skeleton enemies always have their shield up. And when not you need 50+ hits to kill them. Guess I need a better blade... but guess what; I don't get one! Sigh. Also nice to mention how much time I spend searching the weapon/shield of deceased enemies just to note they have a 2 attack thingie... Then how could you beat me around like that!! Grumble...

(PS. Hated that physical weapon flying since I met it in DX:IW; where I had to kill a helipad of enemies with a machinegun. I tell you; all the equiped grenades/med packs/weapons/ammo were spread all over the entire level  <_< and it was NOT fun searching for all the stuff)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That one depends on your block skill. The higher it is, the more they will recoil. It can really hurt when you have one with a shield and one with a 2 handed weapon.

 

Weapon damage is also based on your weapon skill (plus the weapon) and it does seem given the fancy tricks that most can pull off, like knocking you halfway across a room they have a skill in relation to their level.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

OR level up when you complete a goal, rather than as soon as one of your primary attibutes clicks over and the PC is eligible.

 

Think of it as a brake: a disincentive to level fast, so that the system is working to help the player enjoy the gameplay, rather than obsessively and compulsively ticking over a little number on the stat screen. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Making excuses for a broken design isnt going to lead to improvement. A level is supposed to represent an advancement. Thats why it goes up not down. In Oblivion it dosnt work that way. It works the same as EQ where as you leve, you get comparitively weaker compared to a monster of your level. Thats why everyone can solo a level 1 creature, but not every class can solo a level 50 creature. And much like EQ , Oblivion is all about what equipment your carrying and has little to do with the character.

 

The difference with EQ is there are still lots of lower level and higher level creatures running around the place. In Oblivion if you need to get money say for new gear. Or just new gear(which you need in order to fight effectively at your never levle). That will lead to leveling, which in turn will lead to everything going up in level. And thats what makes it very,very broken. If it wasnt, then you wouldnt need to hold levels back to just to balance things up.Or avoid 10 minute hackfests with everything you come across.

 

The idea that a character who minors in fighting skills, will end up a better fighter than one who majors in fighting skills. Is quite simply stupid. But this is indeed how Oblivion works.

 

I've already given my solution. Which is to get rid of the levels.The system dosnt need levels anyway. They add nothing which could not be done by expanding learn by doing. This would lead both to more fluid game play and get rid of most of the reasons for complaint at a stroke.

[metadigital]

I am not going to argue that with you, because I don't think your central premise is wrong (that the enemies "level better" than the PC, on average, and the only way to balace this is with magical items).

 

The level system seems to me to be a hang-over, or some sort of "RPG attribute": a players' expectation.

 

That said, I didn't start playing and think "Right, the level system is broken, how can I fix it?"; I just played it, recognised the way it worked and thought about how to maximise my PC attributes (as I do with all games). In point of fact this is not a particularly new mechanism: I've encountered it several times before (wasn't Wizardry like this?).

[Hassat Hunter]

Oblivion is all about what equipment your carrying and has little to do with the character

 

Tell me about it. After my latest rant I followed Musopticons advise and played another game. However, since I beated that one I got back into Oblivion. What appears, behind my

Edited April 2, 2006 by Hassat Hunter

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Oblivion is all about what equipment your carrying and has little to do with the character

 

Tell me about it. After my latest rant I followed Musopticons advise and played another game. However, since I beated that one I got back into Oblivion. What appears, behind my

Edited April 2, 2006 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[metadigital]

Scamps are surprisingly tough little bastards ...

[Llyranor]

When they're level 60 like everything else in the world

[Gromnir]

*chuckle*

 

split hairs maybe? 

 

level scheme for most games is not attempting to mirror reality, so oblivion accomplishment is kinda suspect, eh?

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It isn't splitting hairs. The ES leveling system is closer to reality than a traditional RPG, but isn't realistic.

 

No, traditional systems aren't supposed to mirror reality, what traditional leveling systems try to accomplish is a sort of epiphany moment. Suddenly your character's experience has come to fruition. "Level up" is supposed to represent a moment in time whare your character realizes something that makes them better. Movies and books do this too, except in movies it isn't inexplicable, it is triggered by something specific. In RPGs, it is triggered by delivering grannie her groceries.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

so you recognize that most games not try for realism with levels... and you note that oblivion ain't realistic... not even colse. nevertheless, you feels compelled to note that oblivion is more realistic than other crpgs.

 

...

 

but you ain't a hair splitter neither.

 

...

 

am realizing that you work for bethesda now, but we thinks you is trying too hard to defend.

 

as for josh comments, we is again struck by how bethesda appraoach just seemed... lazy. what would it take to put a cap on some areas and a basement on others? want arena to be tougher? makes it so that the arena starts scaling at 'bout 10th level. problem solved, no? arena could be a tougher challenge for somebody who were 20th level, but it would insane difficut for anybody under 10th.

 

however, am not sure that the fo games is best example with which to compare. get higher fo level and you can't seems to have a random encounter w/o it being 'gainst enemies wielding miniguns and gauss rifles and plasma rifles. for the people complaining 'bout the insane high level 1007 drops, fo games may be one of the models the bethesda folks were eyeing when they came up with their rather blunt scaling system.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Shadowstrider]

so you recognize that most games not try for realism with levels... and you note that oblivion ain't realistic... not even colse.  nevertheless, you feels compelled to note that oblivion is more realistic than other crpgs.

 

People are claiming that the system is meta-gamey, when it is much less so than a traditional RPG. In traditional RPGs people go around and do every quest, even if their character would not. In Oblivion, the compulsion to do this is signifigantly reduced, because helping grannie only gives you a few gold and not 300 XP.

 

am realizing that you work for bethesda now, but we thinks you is trying too hard to defend.

 

No I'm not. If you have a valid criticism of the system, I'll agree with it. Shadowpaladin pointed out that levels don't mesh with the "practice makes perfect" level scheme, I agreed. People claim that the system is broken because leveling up actually makes the game more challenging, also true (but not overly so, clearly, Battlewookie is just terrible).

 

as for josh comments, we is again struck by how bethesda appraoach just seemed... lazy.  what would it take to put a cap on some areas and a basement on others?  want arena to be tougher?  makes it so that the arena starts scaling at 'bout 10th level.  problem solved, no?  arena could be a tougher challenge for somebody who were 20th level, but it would insane difficut for anybody under 10th.

 

It wouldn't be difficult, at all. I simple >/=/< check would be all that is necessary. That isn't what Oblivion wanted to go for. You can do anything at any level, including the quests that require you to be higher level to start (most of 'em anyway).

Edited April 2, 2006 by Shadowstrider

[Tigranes]

People are claiming that the system is meta-gamey, when it is much less so than a traditional RPG. In traditional RPGs people go around and do every quest, even if their character would not. In Oblivion, the compulsion to do this is signifigantly reduced, because helping grannie only gives you a few gold and not 300 XP.

 

Other RPGs rewarded you greatly for doing minor sidequests? I don't think so. (BG1, Exterminate the Rats!) In fact, it's all about the way you play. BG2 was by anyone's standards a large game, and FFVII/VIII had big worlds with lots of pointless sidequests and hidden things (collect 50 of random thing for random reward!!!) and I still did them all, just because I hate missing things. And it's still what I do in Oblivion, I cringe when i see +10 active quests in my journal. Others will play differently. The quest mechanic in Oblivion is not any different.

 

Otherwise, SS, I can understand why Beth valued the ability to go anywhere adn do any quest at any time, and so I understand the reasons for their decisions - and no, it's not terrible or absolutely gamebreaking, but I would definitely suggest that it is the greatest flaw in Oblivion, especially since everybody knows its plot / characterisation / dialogue was never going to be the focus or be any good. The gameplay and exploration / questing is what mattered, and it is severely disenchanting to realise that everything scales to you, because as I said before,

 

Oblivion lets you go anywhere you want - but everywhere you go, is the same.

[J.E. Sawyer]

It's a tough call, though.

 

Bethesda obviously prioritized wanderlust above over-achievement in their design phase, and Oblivion is the result. By that I mean the ability to play in the sandbox, to go and do any quest at any time is a fundamental design decision that was taken before a line of code was written.

Great, then let the player deal with the consequences of attempting to conquer an area that is obviously full of great challenges before the character is of an ideal level to do so. I've read Bethsoft designers defend the easily-abused learn-by-doing system by saying that it's not their responsibility to prevent the player from doing stuff like jumping around the world non-stop to build their Acrobatics skill. I don't get why that philosophy doesn't extend to things like auto-balancing. In games like Ultima V, the Phantasie games, Fallout, even Pool of Radiance, the player had many exploration options at any given time. After leaving Tilverton in Curse of the Azure Bonds, you could head straight to the Mulmaster Beholder Corps if you wanted to. Your characters were all in the 5th-7th level range, but hey -- knock yourself out.

 

Auto-balancing effectively removes serious consequence from player choice. As unintuitive as this may seem, choice without serious consequence often makes the player feel pretty impotent.

[Dhruin]

Spot on.

[Shadowstrider]

Except that Fallout pretty much scaled.

[Tigranes]

Fallout scaled?

[Shadowstrider]

Yes. Go get in a random encounter in Fallout.

[Tigranes]

But scripted encounters weren't.

 

 

For example, is the Macarcand (big dungeon between Kvatch and Skingrad) King scaled?

 

[J.E. Sawyer]

Yes.  Go get in a random encounter in Fallout.

How did it scale? I don't remember any scaling in Fallout. If I wandered southwest in Fallout 2, I'd almost inevitably run into Enclave troopers who would wipe the floor with me. In Fallout, if I wandered northwest, I'd run into floaters and centaurs, who would also usually wipe the floor with me.

 

Areas most certainly did not scale. If you somehow managed to get into the Necropolis by blowing past everything in between it and Vault 13, the ghouls and super mutants would destroy you.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Theory tested. I loaded up Fallout, made a character, and went straight west from Vault 13. I encountered a group of super mutants and a floater. I tried to run away and a super mutant shot me at 15 hexes in the dark for 96 damage, killing me.

 

If that's scaling, I don't think I want to see what those random enounters are like at 15th level.

[Kasoroth]

Scaling enemies is not bad at all. It challenges the player and most games are too easy nowadays anyway. And if Oblivion gets too hard, there is a difficulty slider for such purpose.

Wizardry 8 had scaling enemies and they would often attack in packs of 30-50 against your 6-8 party members... And it's still a great game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

As far as I remember Wizardry 8 didn't scale the encounters much, if at all. In Wiz 8 you could go into the dangerous areas at low levels and those big groups of tough enemies would be right there to turn your pathetic party into a fine red mist. Likewise, you could go back to the easy areas when you were high level and turn the encounters there into bits of blasted flesh with a few spells. It was great because the enemies were different from area to area, but didn't seem to change based on your partys' level.

 

Oblivion is quite fun, but the encounter scaling is quite annoying because it's exactly the opposite of Wizardry 8. I created 2 characters in Oblivion, and I went through a particular dungeon with one character at very low level (about 2 or 3), and encountered some weak imps that were easily dealt with. I went to the same dungeon with my other character at level 14, and met a bunch of trolls, spriggans and will-o-wisps which required me to use up quite a few charges on my magic weapons to defeat.

 

The encounter scaling in Oblivion essentially makes it feel like you're getting less and less powerful as you gain levels because doing the same thing is harder at high level than it is at low level. Wizardry 8 was a great example of minimal encounter scaling, Oblivion has way too much encounter scaling, especially for a non-linear game.

 

For a linear game, it makes some sense to scale encounters because the player only has one choice of where to go next, so the game designer has to make sure that the one and only available path is of an appropriate difficulty. With a non-linear game, they can just create a bunch of different places of various difficulty levels, and the player can choose what to do. If you want to try to charge through the main plot at low levels because you like a challenge, go ahead. If you want to explore, and gain a ton of levels on side quests so you can stomp on the main quest opponents with ease, you can do that too, or anything in between. Unfortunately that's not possible in Oblivion because all the encounters scale along with you.

 

I like the feeling of accomplishment that you can get from getting through an area that you had to flee from earlier in the game because it was too tough, and that's one element that Oblivion seems to be lacking.

 

-Kasoroth