Muslim anger towards Scandinavia...

[Jorian Drake]

I think thie thread has served its duty and its time to close it,

what do you think? (Question is for the Moderators)

[Gorth]

And of all the possiblities, religion was the focus of the - to use your own words - "convenient scapegoat" he chose to polarize the germans against an "foreign" threat.

I'm not going to argue vehemently that it is a fact, but I'm pretty convinced from the history books that I've put my hands on so far, that Hitler's beef with Jews was as an ethnic group, not a religious group. The same way he persectuted gypsies and other "undesirables". The old propaganda materials I've seen so far, emphasises and ridicules ethnical traits, not religious ones.

[Moose]

Precisely. The bulk of Polish are catholic but they still got sent to the death camps.

[Dark_Raven]

I think we need a time out for now. Let the tempers cool off and recollect your thoughts.

 

I will unlock it later today.

[Cantousent]

I think targetting Muhammad in a political cartoon is distasteful and unwelcome. I have seen similar cartoons target Jesus, God, and a whole slew of religious figures. Still, it is the hallmark of any democracy that it must countenance distasteful, unwelcome, or even destructive speech for fear of rendering meaningless the very idea that speech is free. I'm sad the other thread was closed. The debate was sharp and tempers ran high, but it was generally well argued on all sides. If the other thread is unlocked, then let this one sink. In the meantime, I was reading the other thread and I'd like to see the debate continue. Hopefully, with less hostility and rancor.

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11097877/

 

The following comment should frighten anyone who believes in democracy.

 

 

[karka]

The biggest problem with these cartoons is, drawing Muhammed is a big sin and completely forbidden in Islam.

[Lucius]

I have asked both Revan and Wals to reopen my thread, I really think a warning would have been appropriate first.

[Lucius]

The biggest problem with these cartoons is, drawing Muhammed is a big sin and completely forbidden in Islam.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But we in Europe are not subjects to Islamic law.

[astr0creep]

The biggest problem with these cartoons is, drawing Muhammed is a big sin and completely forbidden in Islam.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But we in Europe are not subjects to Islamic law.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't think an Islamic law is concerned here. I think it's more of an International law. Probably not a law at all, just common sense and respect of fellow humans and their beliefs.

 

Everybody has the right to express their religion fully.

 

Followers of Islam are very fond of their religion, it guides their lives completely.

Since this drawing is a major sin, when they see it, it's like going straight to hell or something.

 

Publicly showing this drawing is like feeding some Kosher meat to a Jewish person and reveal after they finish eating it that no, it was not kosher.

 

Thats what I think anyway.

[Lucius]

Everybody has the right to express their religion fully.

Oh by all means, which applies to all kinds of cults too.

 

But everybody also has a right to express their views fully, and that includes making fun of religion.

[astr0creep]

Everybody has the right to express their religion fully.

Oh by all means, which applies to all kinds of cults too.

 

But everybody also has a right to express their views fully, and that includes making fun of religion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm atheist so I'm all for making fun.

 

But be prepared to deal with it. Religion is always touchy.

[Lucius]

I haven't said that I can't deal with it, but I'm glad to see that a lot of Europeans are supporting the news papers freedom of speech.

 

The muslims are entitled to boycott all they want, but the fundamentalists are hurting their own cause by threatening us with violence... that only makes that much more of the West rally to our defence.

[astr0creep]

I haven't said that I can't deal with it, but I'm glad to see that a lot of Europeans are supporting the news papers freedom of speech.

 

The muslims are entitled to boycott all they want, but the fundamentalists are hurting their own cause by threatening us with violence... that only makes that much more of the West rally to our defence.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, from where I'm standing, I think the West cares for Europe just as much as Europe cares for the West.

 

I also think the drawing was just a plow to get some international attention for the newspaper in question. Apparently it worked to some degree.

 

But I didn't hear about this outside these forums so...

[213374U]

I think targetting Muhammad in a political cartoon is distasteful and unwelcome.

And yet, the notions of what is "distasteful" and what is not are so subjective.

 

 

[Cantousent]

Of course my views of what is distasteful and unwelcome are subjective. Hence, I siad that I thought it was distasteful. Even should we reach a consensus, the fundamental fact remains that the debate is centered on subjective viewpoints. That doesn't mean that we can't argue such views. That also doesn't mean we cannot reach a broad consensus.

 

EDIT: I think we CAN reach broad consensus, but such a consensus is likely fleeting.

Edited February 2, 2006 by Eldar

[Lucius]

Just in from the news, Europeans are fleeing out of Gaza due to militant muslims going from hotel to hotel, trying to find Europeans.

[Rosbjerg]

to astr0creep - no, the newspaper did it because a danish writer couldn't get anyone to portray The Prophet Muhammed in his book (designed as an educational piece to be used in schools) .. Jyllandsposten then decided to rally some satire drawers and gave them free hands to express and portray Muhammed as they saw fit .. in an effort to boost freedom of speech in Denmark .. which we now see had the exact opposite effect .. Several residing Imams went to their own countries to express their concernes about these drawings, not because Muhammed was drawed, but because they believed he was being ridiculed.. and now, 4 months later, we see how this campaign turned out! I honestly don't know if they went down their with this on their minds, but I hope not ..

 

btw "The West" is both Europe and America..

--

 

I don't believe the issue here is the law against the portrayl of holy symbols, but rather the portrayl who seeks to deliberatly ridicule and offend.. This is Danish culture at it's core, we are very ironic and actually quite mean if you don't understand our particular way of expressing ourselves .. These drawings were never targeted towards Muslims, at least not your average muslim, they were targeted towards those who use religion to further their goals and to provoke a debate about Islam and islamic extremists and their impact on freedom of speech.. and this is why Danish citizens can't understand what all this fuzz is about and Muslims are feeling ridiculed by a country they know nothing about!

The problem is that our goverment had to stand firm and deny any kind of intervention, when a deligation from many arabian countries came here and demanded that we punish those responsible.. since they, in many middleeastern countries, can't comprehend that the media is not controlled or subjected to censur by our goverment, this was ill-recieved as the arabian media could now say "They denied to see us!! and they talk about freedom of speech??".. which only further escelated the issue and made the majority of the touched muslims believe that our goverment was somehow behind all of this..

 

Now, I believe, many groups and politically active extremists are using this conflict, and systematically feeding misinformation to their public (this applies to both Christian/Westerns and Muslims).. so "spindoctors" are weaving an elaborate hate-campaign which will take a serious commitment to unravel and put to rest again..

[Lucius]

Good post Ros.

 

And yes astr0, the West does indeed include both Europe and America... I thought that was obvious.

[213374U]

Of course my views of what is distasteful and unwelcome are subjective.  Hence, I siad that I thought it was distasteful.  Even should we reach a consensus, the fundamental fact remains that the debate is centered on subjective viewpoints.  That doesn't mean that we can't argue such views.  That also doesn't mean we cannot reach a broad consensus.

 

EDIT:  I think we CAN reach broad consensus, but such a consensus is likely fleeting.

A consensus is useless unless there is some measure of force to make sure that consensus is respected. Be it social ostracism, criminal prosecution, or whatever. In this case there is not only no such consensus, but enforcing it should it be reached would undoubtedly entail undermining individual freedoms.

 

Reaching a consensus may be enough for you and me, and even then, only as long as we keep respecting each other. The question here is, do they respect us? I doubt it, because if they did, they would not tell us what should or should not publish in our press.

[Cantousent]

That was pretty much my stance, my numbered friend.

[Rosbjerg]

furthermore:

Naser Khader (a Danish ethnic politician and also muslim)

said, quite beautifully, that he was quite happy with these drawings.. because he understood the Danish use of irony and sarcasm .. he saw this as the first real steps of acceptance, because if one group in society is considered "holy" and "untouchable" they are not well integrated!

If we start treating Muslims/Arabs differently just because we fear how they may react, what does that say about us? that's just as racist or discriminating as "attacking" them purposefully.. maybe it could've been done more tastefully, I believe that would've been wise.. but it's done now and we might as well get the best out of it!

[~Di]

I don't think an Islamic law is concerned here. I think it's more of an International law. Probably not a law at all, just common sense and respect of fellow humans and their beliefs.

 

Everybody has the right to express their religion fully.

 

Followers of Islam are very fond of their religion, it guides their lives completely.

Since this drawing is a major sin, when they see it, it's like going straight to hell or something.

 

Publicly showing this drawing is like feeding some Kosher meat to a Jewish person and reveal after they finish eating it that no, it was not kosher.

 

Thats what I think anyway.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I couple of comments here. First, I don't necessarily agree that everybody has the right to express their religion fully. It depends upon the religion itself, and if "expressing it fully" infringes upon the basic rights of others. Human sacrifice, for example, is pretty universally forbidden despite the fact that some religions still believe in it.

 

Next, I agree that it was pretty danged insensitive to create the cartoons in question, and meant to annoy. Cartoons mocking Christianity are pretty danged insensitive too, but I doubt the world would rationalize Christians storming the streets threatening to kill people and inflict violence. Burning national flags is intended to be insulting, but nobody would tolerate folks of that nation rising up to incite violence because of it.

 

When one specific segment of society is such a bully to society that it receives "special" treatment so it won't hurt society, then can you not see that there is something very wrong with that? If Muslims want to boycott Danes in their own country, fine. But it is not fine for them to incite violence, make violent threats, riot, or generally break the law. They are not special, dang it. The laws apply to them too.

 

My thoughts.

[Cantousent]

The point is, even if it is distasteful, it's the right of a free press to post such material. The threshold for censorship should be quit high. Hell, I'm not Muslim and I find the material irritating, but I've got to accept that freedom of speech means letting other talk also.

 

EDIT: I wrote this post in response to Ros.

Edited February 2, 2006 by Eldar

[astr0creep]

Good post Ros. 

 

And yes astr0, the West does indeed include both Europe and America... I thought that was obvious.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No it wasn't.

 

The West to me has always been North America. The East, Asia; the Middle-East the Arab countries then there is Europe, South America and Oceania(Australia, New-Zealand) all in no particular order of power or superiority.

 

However I agree that for the Islam world, the West equals to Americas and Europe.

 

Oh and before I get flamed again for my ignorance I would like to add 2 things. First, Ignorance is not stupidity. Second, I mean no disrespect to anyone or anything.

 

Teach me something and you will be my friend

[Rosbjerg]

The point is, even if it is distasteful, it's the right of a free press to post such material.  The threshold for censorship should be quit high.  Hell, I'm not Muslim and I find the material irritating, but I've got to accept that freedom of speech means letting other talk also.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

the problem is that average joe in the middleeast don't understand freedom of speech .. because he's used to have the goverments or royal families dictate what is and what is not allowed to be published in the media..

 

edit:

even several ambassadors requested to see the Prime-minister as they thought he was the minister of the media as well .. hence he was responsible .. and they live here!

Edited February 2, 2006 by Rosbjerg