Oblivion: PC Gamer Praises in Preview

[Llyranor]

The other problem with Minsc quest is that it's pretty inconsistent with the rest of the world. World consistency is very important.

[Diamond]

He had decent intellogence, and wisdom.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

8 and 6 respectively is decent?

 

 

On topic:

I liked the way BG2 had its "timers" with subquests (Korgan, Nalia, Jaheira quests). It had the impact on the gameplay, yet was not annoying.

[Llyranor]

"The persuasion minigame is very different from what was shown at E3. It plays much more like a game now. Similar to the one we showed, the game still uses a circular interface divided into four quadrants for the different persuasion types. The art is completely different and fully animated now. Each of the four quadrants will fill with wedges of different sizes. The size of the wedge reflects the scale of the potential effect of your choosing an action. Choosing a large wedge has a great effect; choosing a small wedge has a small effect.

 

As you highlight in turn the Admire, Boast, Joke, and Coerce quadrants, the person 's face shows his reaction to each of the actions. For each of the four actions, he will Love one, Like one, Dislike one, and Hate one. Don't take too long, because the person 's disposition is steadily falling. The person 's disposition goes up when you select a Loved or Liked action and goes down when you select a Disliked or Hated action."

 

ROFLASFJKYASHFSKJFHASMGHASKGJSHAGAKSGASKGASAKSGHASKGHASKHGAUYCASICHASCASCHASKHCA

KCHASJCASKBCASKFCBHSKFHASKFHASFAS

[Nick_i_am]

ROFLASFJHASHFASHF

 

BEST

RPG

EVER

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Haha, Oblivion is the pinnacle of roleplaying facial animations!

 

Regardless I suspect it's going to be a good game, though not necessarily a good RPG, or an RPG I'd like.

[alanschu]

I don't like the insta-feedback, unless we have some sort of ability to have premonitions.

 

Jade Empire had the same thing, which was just irritating.

[~Di]

First, I think we have to accept that there will always be aspects of games, including our beloved RPG's, that are unrealistic and illogical. Magic isn't realistic or logical. Being able to run sixteen blocks then jump onto a first story roof without having a heart attack or respiratory failure isn't realistic or logical. Finding a sniper rifle in a sewer isn't realistic or logical. Finding a +2 sword on a kobold isn't realistic or logical... kobolds don't exist, dammit.

 

Games are supposed to be fun. Period. Game developers want their games to be fun to the largest number of players. The largest number of players do not enjoy being frustrated, bored or annoyed, so game developers try to avoid things that frustrate, bore or annoy the largest number of players. These players, btw, are not stupid morons or addled-brained. They simply don't think trudging to a bank every five minutes to unload weighty gold, or staring at dark monitor for an hour waiting for the game-world sun to come up in order to progress is a fun way to spend their recreation hours. They also do not like investing 30+ hours in a game only to find a hidden timer has expired and they have to start over.

 

Is it wrong to want the gameworld to have its own function, to exist other than to serving the player's every whim? Time as the gameworld knows it halts when the player isn't looking? And it's okay to go on a picnic when assassins are hunting you? Because time is a real world notion, suddenly it has no more bearing on the gameworld? What about the plausibility of the gameworld? What happened to consequence?

 

Newsflash! Games DO exist to serve the whims of players. That is the point of games, wouldn't you agree? The real question you are asking is, "Is it wrong to want the gameworld to serve MY whims as a player." And no, it's not wrong to want that. There are games that will serve many of your personal whims. The world of Gothic, in fact, does much of what you wish, but has done it in a manner that doesn't (for the most part) bore and annoy most players. ( Most being the key word here.) The Thief series also had the kind of "realistic" game world consequences you might enjoy (although I don't know how realistic it is to have water arrows that can put out torches! Another case where fun and gameplay have overridden logic, and rightly so.)

 

Many games also have quests that are time-oriented. The player knows up front which quests those are, and what his/her options might be. As for the dying-cat/burning-building analogy, that would turn me completely off the game. Why? Because the game offers me a situation where no matter what choice I make I will feel icky afterward. I do not like feeling icky. I do not like lose-lose situations in my games. (Yes, feeling icky and lose-lose situations are realistic and follow logic consequenc. So does diarrhea, but I don't want that in my games either.)

 

Ok, so I am informed that an assassin is hunting me. Should I go on a picnic? Maybe. Is the purpose of the picnic to flush out the assassin? Maybe the purpose of the picnic is to increase my reputation with an important faction, or simply because I'm hungry. Just because an assassin is after me doesn't mean I have to go hide in a closet for the rest of the game. What do you suggest I (my character) do? That's up to the game, isn't it? If the game gives my character the information needed to find and kill the assassin, great. If it doesn't, I'm going on a picnic and will worry about the assassin later.

 

But if the game says nothing other than an assassin is after you, now go out and hunt him down in this big, interesting world... and I am in the process of doing so when a gong goes off and "TIME'S UP, YOU LOSE!" flashes on the screen, yes I as a player am going to be pissed off. A great many players would be pissed off. Game developers know this, and few of them go out of their way to piss of a large number of players. If the game story requires a time limit, most developers will mitigate the frustration factor by letting the player know up front what that time limit is and give them game options to meet it while still having some freedom to play the game to their personal taste.

 

This doesn't have anything to do with 'real life', it has to do with the gameworld's narrative, and its internal logic. This isn't an argument for realism, it's one for logical gameplay and narrative flow.

 

Depends on the game, doesn't it? Logic is not static, after all. Different people using their own logic will come to different conclusions depending upon the facts available to them and the experience they bring to their deductive reasoning. You cannot simply insist that everyone who comes to a differing conclusion is wrong. Well, you can so insist... but that would make you wrong.

 

It's okay to want what you want, so long as those who disagree aren't insulted, looked down upon, or condescended to (which you have not done in your post, btw!)... because it's okay for the loyal opposition to want what they want as well!

Edited January 24, 2006 by ~Di

[alanschu]

I think you did a fantastic job of not really reading what we're writing.

[LoneWolf16]

intellogence

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Irony incarnate.

 

'lol lol be realistic cuz improving and innovating gaming design costs money ROFLSAFASJFHSJAGAS' is no excuse. Full voice-acting doesn't cost anything, of course. Yay for mainstream commercialism.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Was that directed at me? Unless I'm failing to detect sarcasm...that line about Voice-acting not costing anything is......not smart and it's a good "excuse" when cash is the be all and end all in the gaming industry...if you don't have enough, you can't do certain things. The longer a dev time runs, I assume, the more it costs.

 

 

 

We can argue about this until our damned fingers fall off but there's one basic thing it all comes down to...as I've said, that one thing is Implementation.

 

Timers themselves aren't inherently bad or good. It's how they're used, within the context of the game, that's the key.

[Plano Skywalker]

one way to implement an all-encompassing timer is to have the system look for clues as to what you are doing....if it is obvious that you are advancing the main quest, then the timer slows way down.

 

if you have spent 20 hours level grinding, then the timer is ticking along....time does not have to be a constant in a game in order to be an effective opportunity cost.

Edited January 25, 2006 by Plano Skywalker

[Kasoroth]

It was actually Wing Commander 1 that had your branching paths.  The success/failure of the Tiger's Claw depended on how well you did your missions.  Every two failures, put you down another "setback" so to speak.

 

Wing Commander 2 focuses on a much tighter story involving the characters on the TCS Ticonderoga.

 

But I'm just in a nitpicking mood

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hmm, I thought Wing Commander 2 was the one on the TCS Concordia, but it's been many years since I played it.

 

-Kasoroth

[alanschu]

Whoops, it is the Concordia.

 

Not sure where I pulled Ticonderoga out of.

[alanschu]

Whoops, it is the Concordia. :">

 

Not sure where I pulled Ticonderoga out of.

 

 

I am confident that the game you described was still WC1. Though it may have occurred at some points in WC2, I remember it being a much more story oriented game, with you bumping into Angel on the Concordia, and Paladin popping his head up etc. etc.

[Shadowstrider]

First, I think we have to accept that there will always be aspects of games, including our beloved RPG's, that are unrealistic and illogical.  Magic isn't realistic or logical.  Being able to run sixteen blocks then jump onto a first story roof without having a heart attack or respiratory failure isn't realistic or logical.  Finding a sniper rifle in a sewer isn't realistic or logical.  Finding a +2 sword on a kobold isn't realistic or logical... kobolds don't exist, dammit. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Just because something is created out of fantasy does not mean it cannot be logical, or even realistic. Realistic does not mean real, it means implemented as if it were real.

 

For example, the ability to jump exists. Everyone can jump, some at greater heights than others. So why can that not be extended to "super jump" where someone, somehow acquires the ability to leap to extreme heights. This could be gained through magic, technology (good technology is indistinguishable from magic, anyway), or the yellow sun of the earth. Flight? Same thing here, flight exists. Why can that not be crafted realistically into a game?

 

Just because something is created from a fantasy does not mean it cannot be realistic.

 

Kobolds might not exist on Earth, no. That does not mean the concept is unrealistic. Humans are sentient creatures who evolved from lower origins. Why could this have not happened to lizards, as well? Or rats? Or lions? Or anything? Simply because something has not happened does not mean it COULD NOT happen. The whole concept of creativity is "what if X was real," if you don't get that, then I have trouble believing you're very creative.

 

Well-written fantasy can be realistic, logical, and entertaining.

[Jorian Drake]

Don't think he played pnp yet <_<

[Nick_i_am]

In other words, it doesn't matter if it doesn't exist in the real world, as long as it makes sense in the game world.

[~Di]

Just because something is created out of fantasy does not mean it cannot be logical, or even realistic.  Realistic does not mean real, it means implemented as if it were real.

 

For example, the ability to jump exists.  Everyone can jump, some at greater heights than others.  So why can that not be extended to "super jump" where someone, somehow acquires the ability to leap to extreme heights.  This could be gained through magic, technology (good technology is indistinguishable from magic, anyway), or the yellow sun of the earth.  Flight?  Same thing here, flight exists.  Why can that not be crafted realistically into a game?

 

It can be and it has been. The problem comes from individual perception of what is and is not logical/realistic within the parameters of certain gameworlds, and whether that logic enhances or detracts from gameplay. Those perceptions are not universal. One person buys into the fact that kobolds exist and can be pickpocketed despite the fact that they are quite clearly naked, and another does not. Your view of the game world may differ from mine, but that does not automatically make you right and me wrong. It makes us different.

 

I was responding primarily to one specific post, offering alternative views to what was presented in that post. I know many folks don't share my views. Then again, many people do.

 

By pulling the opening paragraph out and dissecting it without the context of the second paragraph, and indeed the rest of the post, you have totally missed the point I was making... which was, in a nutshell, that even the internal logic of a game world must be tweaked when that logic replaces fun with frustration for the largest number of game players.

 

The whole concept of creativity is "what if X was real," if you don't get that, then I have trouble believing you're very creative.

 

Wow. I don't think a personal snipe was called for here. For one thing, you ignored the overall message of my post as a whole. For another, you should be able to accept differing views in a respectful manner, particularly if you plan to go into the business of creating games for the wildly varying preferences of many differing playstyles.

 

Well-written fantasy can be realistic, logical, and entertaining.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Obviously. I wasn't drawing a parallel between the lush, fleshed-out world of a well-written novel with the creation of a game world, however. There are vague similarities in the backstory of creating the fictional world, of course, but the implementation is miles different. In a novel one does not follow the protagonists on a daily basis, plodding through mudane daily activities. Scenes are set up to reveal only what moves the plot forward, or gives the reader necessary information. Everything else is simply lost in the white space. If the protagonist of a novel has to trudge to the bank every 30 minutes to deposit his weighty gold, the reader may know about that drudergy because of a line of narrative, but doesn't actually have to read about every occurrence. In a game world, the player not only knows about every occurrence, he/she has to actually do it... over and over and over again.

 

In a game, the player IS the protagonist and in many ways creates his/her own plot movement, so mundane activities sometimes have to be tailored to minimize that... hence, weightless gold, backpacks that contain everything from a dozen weapons to six suits of armor, etc.

 

Everyone pretty much agrees that in game development certain logic/realism functions of the game world itself must be sacrificed in order to keep players interested. The disagreement comes in when players discuss which functions should be sacrificed. There is no right and wrong here, only differing opinions and gameplay styles.

[Gromnir]

"Well-written fantasy can be realistic, logical, and entertaining."

 

 

actually no, fantasy cannot be realistic. is pretty much the definition of fantasy. if the stuff happening in a fantasy story is all realistic stuff then you not got fantasy.

 

however, fantasy can be rational and internally logical

[Kasoroth]

Obviously.  I wasn't drawing a parallel between the lush, fleshed-out world of a well-written novel with the creation of a game world, however.  There are vague similarities in the backstory of creating the fictional world, of course, but the implementation is miles different.  In a novel one does not follow the protagonists on a daily basis, plodding through mudane daily activities.  Scenes are set up to reveal only what moves the plot forward, or gives the reader necessary information.  Everything else is simply lost in the white space.  If the protagonist of a novel has to trudge to the bank every 30 minutes to deposit his weighty gold, the reader may know about that drudergy because of a line of narrative, but doesn't actually have to read about every occurrence.  In a game world, the player not only knows about every occurrence, he/she has to actually do it... over and over and over again.

 

In a game, the player IS the protagonist and in many ways creates his/her own plot movement, so mundane activities sometimes have to be tailored to minimize that... hence, weightless gold, backpacks that contain everything from a dozen weapons to six suits of armor, etc. 

 

Everyone pretty much agrees that in game development certain logic/realism functions of the game world itself must be sacrificed in order to keep players interested.  The disagreement comes in when players discuss which functions should be sacrificed.  There is no right and wrong here, only differing opinions and gameplay styles.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In my opinion, it's as important (if not more so) for a game to have a "lush, fleshed out world" as it is for a good novel. Without a fleshed out world, there's no good context for fleshed out characters to act in, and it's very hard for me to care at all about what happens to them because the circumstances of their existence seem too artificial. A good book can potentially rely on a very interesting, fast paced plot that never really gives the reader much time to contemplate the details of the setting, but in a game, the player is in some ways (as you mentioned) creating his or her own plot, and that requires a very good setting, at least for me.

 

Just as a good novel only depicts the relevant and interesting portions of the characters' lives, a game can (and should) strive to do the same. This is largely a matter of interface. For example, in BG when your characters are tired you can click on a rest button, and 8 hours pass from the character in only a few seconds of player time. This spares the player the boredom of watching the characters rest for 8 hours, but doesn't break the consistency of the world because for the characters, 8 hours did pass. Compare this to NWN, where "resting" causes the character to sit down for a few seconds to be suddenly fully healed. From the player's perspective, both games have similar level of effort/time/hassle for resting, but the NWN implementation sacrifices a lot of game world consistency while the BG implementation does not.

 

Similarly, limitations like weighty gold and limited inventory could be included in such a way that there is a time cost to the character to make multiple trips back to town, without burdening the player with the necessity of playing it all out manually, so that these activities are "lost in the white space" as they are in a novel.

 

This returns us to the topic of time limits. As I said in an earlier post, I much prefer time limits that provide "opportunity costs" to the character without forcing the player to rush through things. If there was some kind of quick button in the inventory screen that essentially performed the "haul all these selected items to the nearest town, pawn them, and return to the currect location" action, and then passed the appropriate amount of time on the game clock, and you had time limited events where the time was measured in days rather than minutes or hours (and time passed at a 1:1 rate except during rest, fast-travel, etc) this would eliminate the player hassle of dealing with these limitations or having to rush through the game, while maintaining world believability by requiring the character to accept the limitations. If you didn't currently have any time critical quests active, you could freely click the "haul loot and pawn" button as much as you wanted, and the only consequence would be a different day on the game calendar. If you make the 4 day trip to town and back 12 times while chasing a fleeing villain through a dungeon, you should expect the villain to escape.

 

I agree that creating drudgery for the sake of drudgery is a bad thing, but I think that the best solution is to implement a game interface that moves those activities "off-screen" whenever possible rather than simply giving the characters inexplicable super-human powers that eliminate their need for such drudgery.

 

-Kasoroth

Edited January 26, 2006 by Kasoroth