Dhruin Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 I don't normally post RPGDot articles here but I thought you might be interested in a small interview we have with MCA on the process of writing for NWN2. It's not meant to cover gameplay issues but I hope you enjoy it: http://www.rpgdot.com/index.php?hsaction=10053&ID=1197 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirottu Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 About NWN2: As far as these reward systems go, there are a number of things we introduce in dialogue. One is alignment-based responses, trying to give at least three responses per node that have meaning rather than a single railroad response - and even if they link back to the same thread, try to make each divergence have different repercussions for alignment, reputation, and potentially companion influence. Skill and stat-based responses really ego-stroke a player who specialized in certain skills, even if it's just Lore and Spellcraft, and you can really have a lot of fun with Taunt and Perform-based responses in the right circumstances. Totally sweet! About PNJ: Clich This post is not to be enjoyed, discussed, or referenced on company time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 And lastly, always make sure dialogue doesn't get in the way for people who don't like it. If they want to short-circuit a conversation and just get a journal entry so they can go fireball the next person, they should be allowed to do so - we don't want to enforce a certain playstyle or force someone to listen to an exposition when all they want to do is throw magic missiles in some troll's face. This looks like a lesson learned from PS:T. Clich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
213374U Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 About NWN2:As far as these reward systems go, there are a number of things we introduce in dialogue. One is alignment-based responses, trying to give at least three responses per node that have meaning rather than a single railroad response - and even if they link back to the same thread, try to make each divergence have different repercussions for alignment, reputation, and potentially companion influence. Skill and stat-based responses really ego-stroke a player who specialized in certain skills, even if it's just Lore and Spellcraft, and you can really have a lot of fun with Taunt and Perform-based responses in the right circumstances. Does that mean I'll finally be able to [Force Choke] people in dialogues? Uh, wait a sec... - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Cliche reversal is nothing new. They teach you that in Creative Writing 101. Doing cliche reversal well, that is a different matter. At least they are trying to do that unlike Bioware whose entire games are based around cliches and no reversals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 not care how chrisA came to realization just so long as he did. sure, folks has been pointing out the various useful ways to approach clich "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Unlike Bioware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 bio games, and particularly bio writing, has improved over the years. they seems pretty close minded at the moment, but they has shown examples of improvement. on the other hand, chrisA and the other bis refugees... you know, we thinks that maybe chrisA would benefit from checking out the boards on occasion. doing so seems to have helped the biowarians even if it has aggravated them. the obsidian folks, on the other hand, has not really made strides since ps:t. the same flaws exist... the same mistakes is being made. sure, we liked ps:t on the whole, so the things needed to be improved is less, but kotor2 were quite rife with all those things that were bad in ps:t... some of the hokie dialogues that read like strung together fortune cookie responses just being a single such example. compare bg1 npc character development to kotor. compare fallout and ps:t npc character development to kotor2. if vis is honestly suggesting that bioware has not improved, then he is a fool r a liar. we know he got an axe to grind with bio, and cannot be objective, but even he cannot possibly makes claim that bio writers have not improved. bis/obsidian improvement... *shrug* honestly, we not know who the obsidian writers/designers is getting critical feedback from, 'cause we is honestly amazed at just how little they has changed. they is still so damned cose to being good... w/o improving much at all. tragic. 'course the real point of this response is to again note that vis has a real problem when it comes to bio. weren't no mention o' bio direct or indirect and vis gotta get in his shot anyway. maybe vis should takes a pilgrimage to vancouver, (barefoot in snow "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 (edited) Bio has improved up to BG 2. Neverwinter Nights and beyond they have stagnated in their story design and writing. We still get the predictable plot twist. We still get the same betrayer scenerio. We still get "role play" options that mean very little in the scope of the game. We still get very linear gameplay. Bioware has reduced their writing and design skills to a formula and their stories have suffered for it. Edited December 22, 2005 by Judge Hades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angshuman Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 (edited) Unlike Bioware. Well, as a "reader", I'd prefer a cliche (how do you get the accent-ague?) done well to a reversal implemented horribly. I did enjoy KOTOR's story a whole lot, cliche or not. Edit: And I guess it's people like me that are responsible for lowering the lowest common denominator that most games seem to be designed for nowadays Edited December 22, 2005 by angshuman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.E. Sawyer Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 I think cliche reversal is an okay tool until the reversal or twist becomes the new cliche. Just look at every M. Night movie. Everyone waits for the twist because they know it's coming. The twist becomes an impotent tool in many cases because the viewer either sees it coming or the twist is so far-fetched that it comes off as absurd. twitter tyme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 (edited) Well, thanks to Bioware the Betrayer story element has become cliche. Yoshimo betrays you... SHOCK! Melissan betrays you... Shocked? Aribeth betrays you... Um, okay. Bastila betrays you... Yawn. master Li betrays you... Whatever. Edited December 22, 2005 by Judge Hades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantousent Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 (edited) Actually, what I thought was surprising when comparing KotOR and KotOR 2 was the fact that what I had considered BIS strengths and Bioware weaknesses were reversed. The same was true for Bioware strengths and BIS weaknesses. The dialogue always seemed better in BIS games, but I truly thought it was dreadful in KotOR 2. I like what I hear about NWN2, but I wouldn't pre-order the game as it stands now. That might change as I'm increasingly assured that Obsidian is determined to put some real effort into the single player campaign. Avellone's statements are somewhat assuring. EDIT: Good Lord, it sounded like I needed to preorder KotOR 2. Edited December 22, 2005 by Eldar Fionavar's Holliday Wishes to all members of our online community: Happy Holidays Join the revelry at the Obsidian Plays channel:Obsidian Plays Remembering tarna, Phosphor, Metadigital, and Visceris. Drink mead heartily in the halls of Valhalla, my friends! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 (edited) KotOR 2 had the ability of being a ver ygood game if LA kept their hands out of the development, didn't rush the development, and let Obsidian give it the proper support it needed post release. Because of LA's mismanagement or purposeful sabotage, KotOR 2 failed to live up to its potential. Edited December 22, 2005 by Judge Hades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WinterSun Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Yoshimo betrays you... SHOCK! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Seriously? I knew he was working for the enemy the moment I met him.It was just too convenient,the way he happened to be wandering around a dungeon I was trying to escape from. Aribeth betrays you... Um, okay. I'm on chapter 2. Thanks... master of my domain Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Sorry, but after a game has been out a year its free reign on things like that. At least it is to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaftan Barlast Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 (edited) My advice to writers would be to just take dialouge very, very seriously. The overall standard is very low in computer games and it needs to be kicked up a few notches (MCA&Co do represent the upper strata of game writers so it doesnt quite apply to them). Dont be afraid to go Bergman on a game just because its a game and not a book or film An above all, dialouge makes 99% of the roleplaying experience so make sure the player always has between 3-6 different available responses. ...and why do all game writers think that people enjoy playing "bastard" or "jerk" evil characters? Noone wants to play the fantasy variety of a highschool bully. If people want evil, give them Hannibal Lecter, not some punk who likes to rob strangers of heir lunchmoney Edit: Spelling- Im on a very slippery laptop keyboard Edited December 22, 2005 by Kaftan Barlast DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angshuman Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Bastila betrays you... Yawn. I would consider that a bait. Most players could see that coming from a mile away. I, for one, was completely expecting it to be the "big shock... not!" moment of the game. The actual twist was quite unexpected, and worked because I took the bait and was expecting the cliche and nothing else. What I did not understand was why the story actually followed through with the bait even after the actual revelation. I thought that was quite pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 There was an actual plot twist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angshuman Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 There was an actual plot twist? Aww... c'mon, give us simple-minded folks a break :D, quit being so sarcastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 (edited) I exist therefore I am sarcastic. Edited December 22, 2005 by Judge Hades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.E. Sawyer Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 My advice to writers would be to just take dialouge very, very seriously. The overall standard is very low in computer games and it needs to be kicked up a few notches (MCA&Co do represent the upper strata of game writers so it doesnt quite apply to them). Dont be afraid to go Bergman on a game just because its a game and not a book or film At one point during the development of Gauntlet: Seven Sorrows, I was talking to someone on the team about the story. I asked him if he liked it. He said, "Well, maybe for a movie, but not for a game." Someone else told me that he didn't like the story because it didn't fit into the traditional archetypes. I have since decided that I should be very careful about trying to contribute to game stories because my tastes are so different from those of many people. twitter tyme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darque Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Well, thanks to Bioware the Betrayer story element has become cliche. Yoshimo betrays you... SHOCK! Melissan betrays you... Shocked? Aribeth betrays you... Um, okay. Bastila betrays you... Yawn. master Li betrays you... Whatever. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I gotta admit I agree with you. More of the same is never a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 (edited) The thing is some games are becoming more and more cinematic. KotOR 1, KotOR 2, and Jade Empire for example. Dialog that seems to be cinematic would fit that style but at the same time it shouldn't sacrifice good role playing and good role playing options. Also traditional archtypes are good if you are designing a traditional game. If not then using the archetypes would be tiresome for the player. When designing a story, or a campaign, I take into account the whole setting and map out the major aspects of the campaign from the beginning point and the ending point. If the cinematic approach works then I shift the houserules just a tad and create NPCs and allow PC options that cater to that approach. If more traditional gaming is needed I go that round. Experimental gaming are good for short campaigns but can be equally rewarding. Before you do any sort of writing for the dialog or what key events you have inthe campaign or the game you need to cement what you want to accomplish and the style in wish to have. At least that is what I do. That is probably what would probably frustrate me the most but at the same time bring such exhileration. Campaign design by commitee, which is basically how I view what game designers such as yourself and the team does. You settle upon the overall theme of the game, the setting in which it is in, and build nested spheres in which tells a cohesive story that must feel consistant in style but varied in content. Edited December 22, 2005 by Judge Hades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 I think cliche reversal is an okay tool until the reversal or twist becomes the new cliche. Just look at every M. Night movie. Everyone waits for the twist because they know it's coming. The twist becomes an impotent tool in many cases because the viewer either sees it coming or the twist is so far-fetched that it comes off as absurd. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I totally agree. I loved the 6th Sense. But The Village was bizarro because he tried to have twists, and fake twists, to make you think that that was the twist, because we all know that there's going to be a twist. I think in his next movie, his "twist" should be that there is no twist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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